Why do you want QC charging for the Leaf?

[ztanos]

Why do gas stations have to be everywhere? My Saturn has a range of about 300 miles. But for it to be useful I have to have them two to a street corner apparently. I don't think we need them everywhere, just enough to be realistically useful. Even if that meant ever 50 miles. Everything has it's limitations if you apply it correctly.

:roll: Do I really have to explain this?

Ok, the reason there's gas stations everywhere is because the NISSAN SOLD 24 TIMES AS MANY ROUGE'S THAN LEAFS LAST MONTH. One single model of car, I didn't mention the Camry, which Toyota sold 80 times as many of, or the Accord or Malibu at 60 times. Gas stations compete, sure, but they also turn a profit. L3 can't turn a profit, and making them compete with each other won't help that.

We'll go with that being the only reason!!!! :roll: Sure. Had nothing to do with the fact that it was the major mode of transportation for over 100 years now.

 

[ztanos]

I guess everybody will just have to learn to disagree with Dan. The "magic" SAE plug will cut your charge times in half while allowing you to drive farther. :lol: But you are doing this in only 1 state, California, in either a car (GM) that will compete annually in sales with a car he laughs at (Mitsu), or a car that will more than likely cost around what the Tesla model S costs, which will most likely make them, also, not very productive annually. Which would you choose if you had the choice?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

For L2 to provide anything like the flexibility of L3, you'd need them to be practically everywhere so that someone like me could plug in at each random stop I make and even then there are days when I'd like to drive longer than L2 will let me no matter how many of them are out there. L2 is cheap enough to be left to the private sector, L3 is what really deserves the public funds! If you ever get a chance to use a quick charging network, you eyes will be opened... it draws crowds. L2 makes EV's look like lame ducks.

but for it to be useful, it has to be everywhere we go, that's tens of thousands, and even then, the rate is just too slow even at 6.6 to be useful when substantial range extension is needed. We will all have L2 at home, that's where it makes the most sense. L2 out in the wild is not viable economically, it's too expensive and too slow.

Why do they have to be everywhere? Because the Leaf/FFE only have 65 miles of range? But, most folks drive less than that on a daily/weekly basis. So why does it have to be everywhere? It's more of a perk, or an incentive to shop at a store, to go to a theater, to be green while you're at school. It's not going to remove range limits from a RLBEV - and neither will a L3. Better batteries will. Until then you just have to deal with it.

Nothing is "fast" they're all too slow. But, L2 costs dramatically less than L3. I have no idea why you'd think L2 is too expensive, but if you do, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Actually, you need to look at Japan and how they are dealing with this. They have found that until there is a quick charging network in a given area, drivers use a fraction of their range. when the network is put in place, they use their cars much more to their full ability, even without actually using the quick chargers that much per person. A relatively small number of QC's can handle the needs of many EV's in an area. It is also true in the US that at this point, the average Leaf owner drives a little over 30 miles a day and still lots of folks charge to 100% needlessly. It is clear that one of the main purposes of a quick charging network is to provide a sense of security, not just flexibility... it's a subtle thing but no matter how much you tell people it's OK to drive the car down to the last mile, they will drive very conservatively until they have a reasonably quick way of recharging. While an even faster charger would be better, what we have now with QC's and CHAdeMO is good enough to move forward with for a test population of early adopters, which is what we are. dramatic expansion will take time and more advancements in QC network deployment and battery technology. Once we have double or triple the energy density in batteries, public L2 is going to be a total waste of time as even more charging is going to be happening at home, quick chargers will be the only thing needed to extend range beyond work and home L2 chargers.

Apart from trips, for daily driving QC will be the safety net. Right now I sometimes charge to 100% when I'll probably need less than 80% - just in case. And I'll sometimes top off at public L2 - just in case. But if QC were available in case of need, then I wouldn't need to charge more nor top off.

And how many folks have bought now that there's 1,300 L3 safety nets out there?

 

[garsh]

L2 makes EV's look like lame ducks.

But the problem is, L3 makes them seem lame as well. Nobody wants to wait 30 minutes when they can refill a tank in 5.

 

[garsh]

...no matter how much you tell people it's OK to drive the car down to the last mile...

And you could spend every penny from your paycheck each week and you'd be OK. But it's best to keep something in reserve for unforeseen future events.

 

[DANandNAN]

What if Ford broke away from their Frankenplug pinky promise, and went with FoMoCo brand DC charging? Should we stop Frankenplug ? Oh, Nissan has said they won't use Franky, so since they said it, I guess we just stop Franky.

Honestly, I hope you can see the flaws in your argument, even if you keep spewing the same pipe dream.

What flaw? That you're envisioning Ford not going with the SAE Combo? Ok, lets say they don't, does that mean that we should rush into installing $50K big'mo's when the Leaf's sales are down ~50% and there's competition from Ford that could drive it even lower?

Yes, let's spend, spend, spend - you should run for office on that.

 

[DANandNAN]

Why do gas stations have to be everywhere? My Saturn has a range of about 300 miles. But for it to be useful I have to have them two to a street corner apparently. I don't think we need them everywhere, just enough to be realistically useful. Even if that meant ever 50 miles. Everything has it's limitations if you apply it correctly.

:roll: Do I really have to explain this?

Ok, the reason there's gas stations everywhere is because the NISSAN SOLD 24 TIMES AS MANY ROUGE'S THAN LEAFS LAST MONTH. One single model of car, I didn't mention the Camry, which Toyota sold 80 times as many of, or the Accord or Malibu at 60 times. Gas stations compete, sure, but they also turn a profit. L3 can't turn a profit, and making them compete with each other won't help that.

We'll go with that being the only reason!!!! :roll: Sure. Had nothing to do with the fact that it was the major mode of transportation for over 100 years now.

Then why did you ask the question in the first place? Did you realize the answers after posting? :lol:

 

[DANandNAN]

I guess everybody will just have to learn to disagree with Dan. The "magic" SAE plug will cut your charge times in half while allowing you to drive farther. :lol: But you are doing this in only 1 state, California, in either a car (GM) that will compete annually in sales with a car he laughs at (Mitsu), or a car that will more than likely cost around what the Tesla model S costs, which will most likely make them, also, not very productive annually. Which would you choose if you had the choice?

Huh? Are you the same person that was mad because I didn't acknowledge that you didn't live on the West coast - as if I care where you live.

I've never said the SAE Combo was going to cut charge times in half, but as it's currently spec'd it could be faster. I've also said that I don't think either plug is good enough to convince the mainstream to buy.

And, no, I don't laugh at the Mitsubishi sales numbers, I laugh at those of you who cling to it's 80 cars/month average as proof that there's another U.S. car using the big'mo because the Leaf's sales numbers keep falling.

 

[DANandNAN]

For L2 to provide anything like the flexibility of L3, you'd need them to be practically everywhere so that someone like me could plug in at each random stop I make and even then there are days when I'd like to drive longer than L2 will let me no matter how many of them are out there. L2 is cheap enough to be left to the private sector, L3 is what really deserves the public funds! If you ever get a chance to use a quick charging network, you eyes will be opened... it draws crowds. L2 makes EV's look like lame ducks.

Why does L3 need to be everywhere? You bought a city car. It's not often that city drivers need more than 100 miles in a day and very few folks are buying despite the fact that there's 1 big'mo for every 100 Leafs on the road. If the big'mo is so beneficial, and since it's a city car, how many more do you need? Sure, it's a bit of an inconvenience to drive 10 miles out of your way to get to a big'mo, but it's a city car and the West coast is full of L2. Use one, get 10MPHC and get on with your day.

If you don't want to opportunity charge then don't, but don't expect that the government is going to continue line the streets with big'mo's because you might need one.

 

[DANandNAN]

L2 makes EV's look like lame ducks.

But the problem is, L3 makes them seem lame as well. Nobody wants to wait 30 minutes when they can refill a tank in 5.

Exactly. The big'mo isn't a "fast charger". It just isn't. Neither is the SAE Combo. Both are Band-Aids for short range batteries that aren't working or viable.

 

[downeykp]

L2 makes EV's look like lame ducks.

But the problem is, L3 makes them seem lame as well. Nobody wants to wait 30 minutes when they can refill a tank in 5.

Exactly. The big'mo isn't a "fast charger". It just isn't. Neither is the SAE Combo. Both are Band-Aids for short range batteries that aren't working or viable.

Why all the negativity. If any of us leaf owners wanted and ice electric car we would have bought a Volt. I would not buy crap from GM. The old GM ran the business into the ground with crappy products. If not for the current administration there would not be GM.
Regardless, I really enjoy the fact that I do not have to change oil and maintain an ice vehicle. Quick charging allows us to stop, grab a cup of Joe and less than 30 minutes later leave. Did I buy a Leaf to travel across the country hell no. But the quick charger gives me a little flexibility close to where I live. For me and many others that is enough.
Every time you make a post it is negative to us who see this vehicle for what it is. A start.

 

[DANandNAN]

I'm negative on both chargers because neither is fast.

Regardless, I really enjoy the fact that I do not have to change oil and maintain an ice vehicle. Quick charging allows us to stop, grab a cup of Joe and less than 30 minutes later leave. Did I buy a Leaf to travel across the country hell no. But the quick charger gives me a little flexibility close to where I live. For me and many others that is enough.
Every time you make a post it is negative to us who see this vehicle for what it is. A start.

It is a start, and it's GREAT that you realize it's a city vehicle. Which is where more of my negativity comes from. There's no point lining the highways and byways with big'mo's for city vehicles. Nothing should be done until there's a car(s) that's selling well and doesn't come close to doubling your transit time. That can be addressed by a much longer range and much shorter charge time.

In the meantime, if you're wiling to pay for the big'mo and the taxpayers don't fund it then I'm fine with them being installed. I just don't want the next breakthrough to come in and Faux News can say "if we hadn't spent all that money on the big'mo we could build build an infrastructure," for the EV that has a 300 mile range and recharges in 10 minutes and has buyers willing to pay for it.

 

[padamson1]

In the meantime, if you're wiling to pay for the big'mo and the taxpayers don't fund it then I'm fine with them being installed. I just don't want the next breakthrough to come in and Faux News can say "if we hadn't spent all that money on the big'mo we could build build an infrastructure," for the EV that has a 300 mile range and recharges in 10 minutes and has buyers willing to pay for it.

Why not do it for city vehicles? It will enable those city vehicles to go deep into the suburbs, what's wrong with that? I do have an issue putting the QC's only on highways with large gaps. We have five 500mi ICE cars and a gas station every 2miles. Is that some sort of waste of money? I guess they think gas stations should only be built 400mi apart. I think QCs should first be built on the outskirts of cities then outward, so they'll be used more often.

More importantly just how is a the big'mo not building infrastructure for 300mi EV's that charge in 10min? The infrastructure for QC units will be usable by any EV that does QC. You won't ever be able to charge in 10 minutes without such infrastructure, those transformers don't just appear out of nowhere. In the meantime we can see charging patterns and figure out what business model supports it. Unlike gasoline, the infrastructure for electricity is shared so we need to figure out how to integrate EV's into the daily loads. That's why we need to spend public money on it.

It's just a cable and some firmware to go from CHAdeMO to the FrankenPlug that's how charger manufacturers can make chargers that do both (dunno about the next L4 standard, but at least the feed to the charger should be shareable). OR and WA are already moving along with their QC network. Will I use it for interstate travel? Probably not, but I have used some to quickly double my daily range when I need it. It was a hell of a lot better than waiting 4-5hrs to do the same thing with an L2.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I've never said the SAE Combo was going to cut charge times in half, but as it's currently spec'd it could be faster.

Oh, heck, I'll go get the popcorn again. Maybe you and Ashley can tell us how.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I can assure you that the QC's are getting lots of use here in WA. no one's complaining about the extra 30 minutes it takes to nearly double the range. They are crowd pleasers! for the folks willing to go EV now, QC's dramatically improve the options of places one can go relatively conveniently. last week I did two 165 mile days with only an hour of charging in the wild each day. Most days I hardly think about plugging in, the battery is in excess of my typical daily need. For the occasion that I want to go further, it's fantastic, maybe not what the mainstream wants yet, but definitely much closer. Again, the subsidy is peanuts. L2 on the other hand is mostly a waste of my time, it's nice philosophically but hardly worth the parking spaces it's taking up at least this early in the game.

L2 makes EV's look like lame ducks.

But the problem is, L3 makes them seem lame as well. Nobody wants to wait 30 minutes when they can refill a tank in 5.

Exactly. The big'mo isn't a "fast charger". It just isn't. Neither is the SAE Combo. Both are Band-Aids for short range batteries that aren't working or viable.

 

[garsh]

Why all the negativity.

Why is this interpreted as negativity?

I bought a Leaf. I love my Leaf! I just don't understand why some people want QC charging everywhere when it seems obvious to me that it won't do much to help sell EVs to the masses. It's just not fast enough. It turns every trip into a ~40mph average excursion.

I can assure you that the QC's are getting lots of use here in WA. no one's complaining about the extra 30 minutes it takes to nearly double the range. They are crowd pleasers!

Remember that the current "crowd" is a bunch of EV early adopters. People who are willing to sacrifice some convenience to try out the new technology.

 

[DANandNAN]

In the meantime, if you're wiling to pay for the big'mo and the taxpayers don't fund it then I'm fine with them being installed. I just don't want the next breakthrough to come in and Faux News can say "if we hadn't spent all that money on the big'mo we could build build an infrastructure," for the EV that has a 300 mile range and recharges in 10 minutes and has buyers willing to pay for it.

Why not do it for city vehicles? It will enable those city vehicles to go deep into the suburbs, what's wrong with that? I do have an issue putting the QC's only on highways with large gaps. We have five 500mi ICE cars and a gas station every 2miles. Is that some sort of waste of money? I guess they think gas stations should only be built 400mi apart. I think QCs should first be built on the outskirts of cities then outward, so they'll be used more often.

More importantly just how is a the big'mo not building infrastructure for 300mi EV's that charge in 10min? The infrastructure for QC units will be usable by any EV that does QC. You won't ever be able to charge in 10 minutes without such infrastructure, those transformers don't just appear out of nowhere. In the meantime we can see charging patterns and figure out what business model supports it. Unlike gasoline, the infrastructure for electricity is shared so we need to figure out how to integrate EV's into the daily loads. That's why we need to spend public money on it.

It's just a cable and some firmware to go from CHAdeMO to the FrankenPlug that's how charger manufacturers can make chargers that do both (dunno about the next L4 standard, but at least the feed to the charger should be shareable). OR and WA are already moving along with their QC network. Will I use it for interstate travel? Probably not, but I have used some to quickly double my daily range when I need it. It was a hell of a lot better than waiting 4-5hrs to do the same thing with an L2.

You can't compare a profit producing gas station with a gigantic money loosing big'mo station. Yes, there are gas stations everywhere, the demand is there and they make money.

There's no point in the government putting big'mo's everywhere, which is what's required with today's RLBEV, because tomorrows non-RLBEV won't need them everywhere because their range will be so much better. There's no need to line the highways with big'mo's when 10K cars can use them and very, very few folks actually are.

The reason there aren't big'mo's everywhere is because the demand isn't there. No one wants to build a station that only 10K cars throughout the U.S. can use, that costs them $50K (unit, install, maintenance and rent and it could be much more than that) and that no one would pay the actual costs to use. If a business wants to put a big'mo in their lot because they think it'll draw in business then they should. Though I have no idea how it's going to make them money - I know folks have said they are buying coffee and beer at their big'mo stops, but you'd have to buy a lot of beer to make a profit on a $50K unit that costs $25/pop. L2, OTOH, is slower, costs MUCH less for the owner and would allow A LOT more time for shopping and spending. That's why L2 makes more sense for businesses.

 

[DANandNAN]

Why all the negativity.

Why is this interpreted as negativity?

I bought a Leaf. I love my Leaf! I just don't understand why some people want QC charging everywhere when it seems obvious to me that it won't do much to help sell EVs to the masses. It's just not fast enough. It turns every trip into a ~40mph average excursion.

I can assure you that the QC's are getting lots of use here in WA. no one's complaining about the extra 30 minutes it takes to nearly double the range. They are crowd pleasers!

Remember that the current "crowd" is a bunch of EV early adopters. People who are willing to sacrifice some convenience to try out the new technology.

Exactly, I'm not exactly negative, I just don't want waste and I don't want us to waste money today that will cause annimosity towards EV in the future.

Great point on the early adopters. I think many of these "travelers" are doing it just to prove it can be done. But, folks don't want a car that inconveniences them if they decide to head to the beach for the weekend or Grandma gets sick and they need to get there. I like the Leaf & FFE & sort of like the Mitsubishi even though I wouldn't drive one. Folks just need to remember that they're city vehicles.

 

[camasleaf]

I just don't understand why some people want QC charging everywhere when it seems obvious to me that it won't do much to help sell EVs to the masses.

If you have a QC and QC chargers in a 10x10 miles grid in your area, you will understand that that will be the biggest help to sell EVs to the masses. You have to experience being low on charge, needed to do an unexpected trip and have a QC handy. In my case, it saves me from using my 25mpg ICE: with a 20 minutes charge I do not have to burn 3 gallons of gas. And I would gladly pay the price of one gallon for those 20 minutes of charge.