Why do you want QC charging for the Leaf?

[DANandNAN]

Well with QC you suddenly have an unlimited range EV. What's not to like???

A hard 45 mph speed limit that can't be broken no matter how fast you try to go?

Notes:

• Perhaps it should be less than 70%, but I am using Phil's report that "80%" is really out of total capacity, and more like 85% of available.
• Going below LBW won't help; it will just increase the charging time.
• If you go beyond 80% the charging slows dramatically, and the numbers get worse.
• 25 minutes charge time is very optimistic, since you need to include the time to get off the freeway and get to the charging station.
• 25 minutes becomes even more unrealistic when you realize you might have to wait for someone else to finish charging.
• I haven't allowed for the fact that multiple charges are likely to overheat the battery, forcing even longer waits.

Ray

That's a great chart, and I hope you don't mind a critique, but IMHO I think it should be a bit slower because it assumes no AC or heat, perfect conditions, perfectly located stations, and allows no time for slowing down and speeding back up.

 

[DANandNAN]

Ditto from Cheezmo, going to my sisters this weekend in Allen, 110 miles round trip from my home in Midlothian - same metro area. Impossible without a DC charger (we are only staying for 2-3 hours for a wedding shower she is hosting - Level 1 won't give us back anything).

No one said there would be chargers on every corner, sometimes you'll just have to burn some gas or buy a Tesla which would have made either trip.

 

[DANandNAN]

Sounds like the Frankenplug won't work for you either. Bummer. What will you talk about now?

What kind of logic are you using? I'll be saying the same thing I've been saying, if Nissan is the only one using it the government shouldn't pay for it.

If a SAE Combo car has better range that will alleviate a lot of problems that current owners are having.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Sounds like the Frankenplug won't work for you either. Bummer. What will you talk about now?

What kind of logic are you using? I'll be saying the same thing I've been saying, if Nissan is the only one using it the government shouldn't pay for it.

If a SAE Combo car has better range that will alleviate a lot of problems that current owners are having.

Please do elaborate how a GM Spark or BMW i3, or a LEAF for that matter, will have any different range based on the charger protocol. I'll go get my popcorn while you 'splain this one.

 

[DANandNAN]

Sounds like the Frankenplug won't work for you either. Bummer. What will you talk about now?

What kind of logic are you using? I'll be saying the same thing I've been saying, if Nissan is the only one using it the government shouldn't pay for it.

If a SAE Combo car has better range that will alleviate a lot of problems that current owners are having.

Please do elaborate how a GM Spark or BMW i3, or a LEAF for that matter, will have any different range based on the charger protocol. I'll go get my popcorn while you 'splain this one.

You should spend less time with popcorn and more time reading. I never mentioned any of those cars.

And, when you're rereading it, please note that I also never said charger protocol made a difference. I said, battery range.

Nissan is the only manufacturer using the big'mo. I'm betting the Big 8 will have longer range batteries before Nissan. Competition is good, which is why I want the Big 8 to succeed. I want longer range batteries, I want real QC and I want us to stop having to burn gas.

If the Big 8 want to make the standard the SAE Combo, I say let them. Their cars will bring in more wealthy buyers, that will fuel competition, and that bring an EVolution to America.

 

[TonyWilliams]

.

And, when you're rereading it, please note that I also never said charger protocol made a difference. I said, battery range.

Nissan is the only manufacturer using the big'mo. I'm betting the Big 8 will have longer range batteries before Nissan. Competition is good, which is why I want the Big 8 to succeed. I want longer range batteries, I want real QC and I want us to stop having to burn gas.

If the Big 8 want to make the standard the SAE Combo, I say let them. Their cars will bring in more wealthy buyers, that will fuel competition, and that bring an EVolution to America.

Well, I stand corrected. The popcorn came out nice, though.

You were referring to batteries, and for that, I can't really predict the future. I can make educated guesses that the A123 problems will affect GM/BMW (and Fisker) in their super advanced batteries, while Nissan just keeps plugging along.

They (Nissan) announced several years ago that they would have a double capacity battery in the 2014-2015 time frame. How about your big 8?

By the way, I'm not against Frankenplug beyond the fact that GM wants to stop ChadeMo (stated goal) and it confuses the car buying public like DVD-HD and Betamax did. Ok, I also have some technical concerns, but they should get resolved in the coming years of certifications.

The bottom line is that there will be many THOUSANDS of ChadeMo chargers before a single Frankenplug. That all by itself will be a tough hurdle for BMW (again, I don't think GM really gives a crap, as I see them as just spoilers).

 

[GRA]

as a practical matter very few people will be willing to make more than one en route L3 each way for a trip - more just extends the trip time too much. I could theoretically get from where I live in the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe or Yosemite using QCs, but it would take me three QCs en route, adding at least 1.5 hours to what's normally about a 3 hour trip. If I wanted to do that as an adventure that's one thing, but if I just want to get to my destination so I can do something there I'm not going to be willing to do that.

You could theoretically get from the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe using a car, but it would take you 3 hours for what is normally an under 1 hour trip by air taxi. Who would be willing to do that? It's always a trade off among cost, time, convenience, and comfort.

Sure is, but in your example (I've done similar a few times) you'd also have to include time driving to the airport, pre-flight (if you're flying yourself), extra unloading/loading time, and car rental plus driving time at your destination. In my experience it's rarely a significant time/convenience advantage at that range, at a huge increase in cost.

However, there are a fair number of day and weekend destinations around the Bay Area that would only require 1 QC, or 1 QC each way with/without L2 at destination to get to, thus making it possible to use a BEV for a much greater fraction of people's miles. Until affordable BEV range increases they will continue to use an ICE/HEV/PHEV for the long distance trips.

I agree that QC would open up many new destinations with a single charge, and those trips will account for most usage. I'd be willing to wait and pay for 2 QC's, or maybe 3. Some would accept more than that.

Apart from trips, for daily driving QC will be the safety net. Right now I sometimes charge to 100% when I'll probably need less than 80% - just in case. And I'll sometimes top off at public L2 - just in case. But if QC were available in case of need, then I wouldn't need to charge more nor top off.

I think we can agree that everyone's patience varies and that many people here are more committed to BEVs than the typical car buyer, and thus willing to put up with a greater level of inconvenience. But the whole point is to move BEVs from a niche to the mainstream, and the latter group's judgement on what is/isn't acceptable will be based on an ICE's capabilities. If we were starting with horses as a baseline it would be a different story.

 

[JeremyW]

Nissan is the only manufacturer using the big'mo

You sure about that, bro?

The fine folks at Mitsubishi would like to have a word with you!

Jeremy

 

[ztanos]

but for it to be useful, it has to be everywhere we go, that's tens of thousands, and even then, the rate is just too slow even at 6.6 to be useful when substantial range extension is needed. We will all have L2 at home, that's where it makes the most sense. L2 out in the wild is not viable economically, it's too expensive and too slow.

Why do they have to be everywhere? Because the Leaf/FFE only have 65 miles of range? But, most folks drive less than that on a daily/weekly basis. So why does it have to be everywhere? It's more of a perk, or an incentive to shop at a store, to go to a theater, to be green while you're at school. It's not going to remove range limits from a RLBEV - and neither will a L3. Better batteries will. Until then you just have to deal with it.

Nothing is "fast" they're all too slow. But, L2 costs dramatically less than L3. I have no idea why you'd think L2 is too expensive, but if you do, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Why do gas stations have to be everywhere? My Saturn has a range of about 300 miles. But for it to be useful I have to have them two to a street corner apparently. I don't think we need them everywhere, just enough to be realistically useful. Even if that meant ever 50 miles. Everything has it's limitations if you apply it correctly.

 

[DANandNAN]

Well, I stand corrected. The popcorn came out nice, though.

By the way, I'm not against Frankenplug beyond the fact that GM wants to stop ChadeMo (stated goal) and it confuses the car buying public like DVD-HD and Betamax did. Ok, I also have some technical concerns, but they should get resolved in the coming years of certifications.

The bottom line is that there will be many THOUSANDS of ChadeMo chargers before a single Frankenplug. That all by itself will be a tough hurdle for BMW (again, I don't think GM really gives a crap, as I see them as just spoilers).

There may be many thousands, I think a lot of that depends on if Nissan is going to buy them or not. It doesn't make much sense to for companies or the government to fund or back them when there are so few people who'll use them, so few people who would buy them since they're limited to 43MPH, so few people are willing to pay $25 a pop, and they cost so much money.

There reasoning for stopping the funding of the big'mo is because it's not what they all have said they are going to use. It only makes sense that if all but one manufacturer are going to use the SAE Combo then the country should only pay for the SAE Combo. I'm not even sure why I have to keep stating that - it's common sense - unless you're looking at this emotionally instead of rationally because you're an owner.

 

[DANandNAN]

Nissan is the only manufacturer using the big'mo

You sure about that, bro?

Do I know you?

Yes, I'm sure there is only one manufacturer. 380 cars for the year and you think they'll be selling them here next year :lol: If you want to list Mitsubishi and their incredibly weak selling car go ahead, it's in good company I guess.

 

[Stoaty]

There reasoning for stopping the funding of the big'mo is because it's not what they all have said they are going to use. It only makes sense that if all but one manufacturer are going to use the SAE Combo then the country should only pay for the SAE Combo. I'm not even sure why I have to keep stating that - it's common sense - unless you're looking at this emotionally instead of rationally because you're an owner.

That is only true if you believe these other manufacturers are going to build a significant number of EV in the next couple of years. Most of us are "a bit skeptical" that is going to happen, and see the Frankenplug as a way to slow Nissan down rather than a way to speed up the widespread adoption of EV.

 

[DANandNAN]

Why do gas stations have to be everywhere? My Saturn has a range of about 300 miles. But for it to be useful I have to have them two to a street corner apparently. I don't think we need them everywhere, just enough to be realistically useful. Even if that meant ever 50 miles. Everything has it's limitations if you apply it correctly.

:roll: Do I really have to explain this?

Ok, the reason there's gas stations everywhere is because the NISSAN SOLD 24 TIMES AS MANY ROUGE'S THAN LEAFS LAST MONTH. One single model of car, I didn't mention the Camry, which Toyota sold 80 times as many of, or the Accord or Malibu at 60 times. Gas stations compete, sure, but they also turn a profit. L3 can't turn a profit, and making them compete with each other won't help that.

 

[DANandNAN]

That is only true if you believe these other manufacturers are going to build a significant number of EV in the next couple of years. Most of us are "a bit skeptical" that is going to happen, and see the Frankenplug as a way to slow Nissan down rather than a way to speed up the widespread adoption of EV.

How funny that you use the word "speed up" when the big'mo and limited range battery effectively doubles the time it takes to go on a trip.

I'm way more than a bit skeptical that Nissan is going to reinvent the wheel, they've done a great thing with the Leaf, but competition and MONEY are what's needed. Without money EV is going to remain a niche market. Range-limited BEV's aren't selling, there's been so much talk about infrastructure and 1,400 big'mo's and the electric highway yet the Leaf's sales are still way down. The general public doesn't want a car that's range is limited to 65 miles and can only go 43MPH on a trip when they have an ICE that can go 300 miles and 80MPH. That's what EV needs to shoot for.

 

[Stoaty]

Range-limited BEV's aren't selling, there's been so much talk about infrastructure and 1,400 big'mo's and the electric highway yet the Leaf's sales are still way down.

I will await Leaf production in Smyrna, the 2013 model and the likely decrease in prices once Nissan doesn't have to contend with exchange rates with the Yen before deciding about sales. It takes time to make this kind of change--probably 10-15 years like it did for the Prius to become mainstream and selling by the boatload. As charging stations go in, battery prices go down, and range increases EV will gradually become more attractive than gasoline cars for many uses. That is especially true as the rest of the world outbids the U.S. for oil and gasoline prices continue to rise.

 

[DANandNAN]

Range-limited BEV's aren't selling, there's been so much talk about infrastructure and 1,400 big'mo's and the electric highway yet the Leaf's sales are still way down.

I will await Leaf production in Smyrna, the 2013 model and the likely decrease in prices once Nissan doesn't have to contend with exchange rates with the Yen before deciding about sales. It takes time to make this kind of change--probably 10-15 years like it did for the Prius to become mainstream and selling by the boatload. As charging stations go in, battery prices go down, and range increases EV will gradually become more attractive than gasoline cars for many uses. That is especially true as the rest of the world outbids the U.S. for oil and gasoline prices continue to rise.

I think you hit on one there, as oil prices rise we'll see more buyers. But, until pricing and any possible equipment reductions are announced for the 2013 I don't think there's any reason to believe that Nissan will lower pricing. Companies save money, but they sure don't have to pass it on to their customers. Especially on projects that are probably loss leaders.

I hope they don't reduce equipment levels, but I have a feeling they will as an apparent cost cutting measure. I really wish Nissan would announce what's going on with the 2013's. We want to buy something.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan is the only manufacturer using the big'mo

You sure about that, bro?

Do I know you?

Yes, I'm sure there is only one manufacturer. 380 cars for the year and you think they'll be selling them here next year :lol: If you want to list Mitsubishi and their incredibly weak selling car go ahead, it's in good company I guess.

Peugeot is a ChadeMo member also, and selling a rebadged Mitsubishi. One more. Three more manufacturers shipping than Frankenplug manufacturers.

But, don't get blinded with facts.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I hope they don't reduce equipment levels, but I have a feeling they will as an apparent cost cutting measure. I really wish Nissan would announce what's going on with the 2013's. We want to buy something.

I doubt there will be many surprises for a 2013:

1- no Frankenplug
2- 6.6 charger optional, 3.3 standard
3- leather interior option
4- power seat option
5- three trim levels, S, SV, SL
6- S will not have Navigation, and will be cheaper
7- SV will be much similar as now
8- SL will have 17 inch wheels (maybe optional)
9- heat pump instead of resistance heater
10-same 24kWh battery
11-absolutely ChadeMo
12-new color
13-dark interior choice
14-maybe electric charging hatch release
15-USA and Euro specific "styling"

 

[grommet]

Tony's list is definitely in the ball park. There will also be a darker interior option, and a good possibility the charging hatch lock will be electronic.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It doesn't make much sense to for companies or the government to fund or back them when there are so few people who'll use them, so few people who would buy them since they're limited to 43MPH, so few people are willing to pay $25 a pop, and they cost so much money.

All the above applies to Frankenplug, should it ever actually be deployed and publically available in the next several years. Personally, I support whatever it takes to get the basic infrastructure installed.

There reasoning for stopping the funding of the big'mo is because it's not what they all have said they are going to use. It only makes sense that if all but one manufacturer are going to use the SAE Combo then the country should only pay for the SAE Combo. I'm not even sure why I have to keep stating that - it's common sense - unless you're looking at this emotionally instead of rationally because you're an owner.

Yes, I believe you've said those same talking points more than once. :mrgreen: Yes, I agree, GM won't use ChadeMo. A company with exactly zero electric cars (since 2003) and the only one proposed will be extremely limited production to simply meet CARB rules. One other company has announced a Frankenplug car. That's it. Both of those COMBINED won't match Nissan EV sales alone.

What if Ford broke away from their Frankenplug pinky promise, and went with FoMoCo brand DC charging? Should we stop Frankenplug ? Oh, Nissan has said they won't use Franky, so since they said it, I guess we just stop Franky.

Honestly, I hope you can see the flaws in your argument, even if you keep spewing the same pipe dream.