Why do you want QC charging for the Leaf?

[GaslessInSeattle]

I would agree mostly, and quick charging is a major advancement that can help us begin to make the shift toward energy independence with today's Li-ion technology, just the way it is. the trick is getting people to realize how little they drive on a daily basis, and how adequate today's EV's are.

There are tens of millions of households that could easily make the Leaf work but can't wrap their mind around the fact that they only drive around 33 miles a day on average, when I say the first major hurdle is psychological, that's what I'm referring to. Something like 60 million households have two cars. While more range will certainly appeal to more people and improve adoption, I think the primary thing holding people back is psychological and quick chargers will help shift the thinking substantially, IMHO. bigger batteries and a quick charging network and yes it will be game over for gas. Fortunately it seems that much more energy dense, less expensive batteries are on the way!

Seeing as how they've been 'on the way' for over 100 years now, although I'll be happy if they arrive I'm not holding my breath. Typically it takes 3-5 years for a new battery to go from the lab to a manufacturer, and another 3-5 years to commercialization.

Nor do I think the price of current batteries is likely to drop significantly. Economies of scale will bring them down a bit, but manufacturing is pretty much a known process so I don't see large improvements there, nor do I see large drops in material costs. That leaves technology improvements to bring costs down - see previous paragraph.

So,I think we've got to do what we can to introduce as many people to EVs with current characteristics now, and not assume that we'll see any major battery improvements in the next five years or so.

 

[DANandNAN]

Charge for 0.5Hours to drive 1.0Hr is more realistic. Typically, my FC have been less than 0.3Hr (this roughly corresponds the time an ICE needs for a refueling stop mid-trip). Otherwise, I do the majority of my charging at home - no other "pit stops" required.

The times I use DCFC are when I'm making a round trip out to the edge of my cars one-way range - This happens two-three times a month. The fast charge makes it possible to start back home in a few minutes rather than a couple hours. Having DCFC almost makes my trips the same as ICE. Not having DCFC doubles my round trip time. In my book, that makes DCFC "Fast", even when compared to ICE.

If you're spending 20 minutes putting gas in an ICE then you're doing something wrong. Your numbers are off in general, unless you're driving slow or planning on stations right where you run out of juice but just before turtle. Personally, I want a bit more wiggle room than that.

 

[DANandNAN]

There is one main reason why EVs will remain niche vehicles (for now):

The batteries.

When compared to a gas tank:

• The capacity is too low.
• The cost is too high.
• They take too long to refill.

Even if we had QC charging stations at *every* gas station in the world, most people would not want to deal with a vehicle with such a short range. While plugging in at home overnight is a huge win (time-wise), plugging in at a QC station in the middle of a trip is a huge negative compared to filling a gas tank.

The first and second points are both really the same, and are both currently correct. BEVs are too expensive for most people, and have ranges too small to keep the price down. Only with subsidies do they come close to breaking even on cost.

The third point is only for the few people that often drive very long distances. For most people, rechanging in the garage might well take hours, but happens while they are sleeping, so no worries.

The cost of fossil fuels is likely to rise with time. The only reason why oil companies are spending millions of dollars to drill one well in deep water to produce oil that can only return of profit if the price stays over $100/barrel is that the easy to get cheap oil has mostly been drilled, pumped and burnt.

The cost of batteries is likely to fall with time. Most of the cost is in the assembly, not in the raw materials.

When the cost of batteries gets low enough, or the price of gasoline gets high enough, then the economics will become compelling. Pure ICE cars might be a niche market and BEVs might be the common car. When? Might be a few years, might be many decades.

The future is unknown. We, as a society, need to keep options open so we can change when conditions change.

"The third point is only for the few people that often drive very long distances." I think you have that backwards. Most people don't drive long distances on a regular basis, but they do drive long distances. Very few folks don't drive long distances. BTW, it's hilarious that because of the Leaf's weak range 65-80 miles is now long distance.

 

[DANandNAN]

Dan,since the biggest challenge to get people to adopt EV's is largely psychological, charging infrastructure must be out ahead of adoption of the vehicles.

I disagree. There is one main reason why EVs will remain niche vehicles (for now):

The batteries.

When compared to a gas tank:

• The capacity is too low.
• The cost is too high.
• They take too long to refill.

Even if we had QC charging stations at *every* gas station in the world, most people would not want to deal with a vehicle with such a short range. While plugging in at home overnight is a huge win (time-wise), plugging in at a QC station in the middle of a trip is a huge negative compared to filling a gas tank.

Right now, all three items are valid points. However, there are batteries in the Labs now that demostrate three times the range, and they state in mass production will cost 1/3 to 1/2 as much as current. What that means is 200 to 250 interstate mile range which is about 3 hrs drive for the same or less cost. :mrgreen:

That means about 30 to 40 mins recharge for every 3 hrs of drive time on trips. That will be a game changer.

Do I need a 200 plus range. YES. I've had my leaf for almost six months and it has handled 98% of all my trips, but only about 80% or less of my mileage. Last Sun I went to visit a friend in the hospital. The problem the hospital was in Atlanta GA. The drive there and back in one day put more miles on a vehicle than my normal drive for two weeks. If I visit my sister for the weekend, I'll put two months worth of driving in two days.

If IBM's new zinc air batteries pan out, we might be able to go 300+ miles on a one hr recharge for about the same or less cost for batteries as today. To me that would make BEV's the same as ICE. :mrgreen:

There's always some company that says they have the next thing in batteries. At least once a month there's an announcement.

Faster charging and better range will be the game changers.

 

[DANandNAN]

There are tens of millions of households that could easily make the Leaf work but can't wrap their mind around the fact that they only drive around 33 miles a day on average, when I say the first major hurdle is psychological, that's what I'm referring to. Something like 60 million households have two cars. While more range will certainly appeal to more people and improve adoption, I think the primary thing holding people back is psychological and quick chargers will help shift the thinking substantially, IMHO. bigger batteries and a quick charging network and yes it will be game over for gas. Fortunately it seems that much more energy dense, less expensive batteries are on the way!

Dan,since the biggest challenge to get people to adopt EV's is largely psychological, charging infrastructure must be out ahead of adoption of the vehicles.

I disagree. There is one main reason why EVs will remain niche vehicles (for now):

The batteries.

When compared to a gas tank:

• The capacity is too low.
• The cost is too high.
• They take too long to refill.

Even if we had QC charging stations at *every* gas station in the world, most people would not want to deal with a vehicle with such a short range. While plugging in at home overnight is a huge win (time-wise), plugging in at a QC station in the middle of a trip is a huge negative compared to filling a gas tank.

You're not going to convince the mainstream buyers that they should switch from ICE when their range is only 65-80 miles and going further requires doubling transit times. This is America, people want to feel that they can pack up at any time and go on a weekend vacation. People want to know that if Grandma gets sick they're driving a vehicle that will get them there in 4 hours instead of 8 or 9 hours.

There's plenty of "Quick Chargers" on the east coast, where are the new sales?

 

[palmermd]

There's plenty of "Quick Chargers" on the east coast, where are the new sales?

Dan, are you actively seeking to be the first user to be banned or put in "time-out" on this forum? Every post you have is a negative comment about Nissan, ChaDeMo, or the Leaf's: battery, range, styling, functionality, charger, DCQC port...I could go on. I was really hoping you would read some of the posts in response to yours and some dialogue would develop, but you refuse to do so and just keep up with the negativity. As my mother would tell me when I was young, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

[GRA]

There's plenty of "Quick Chargers" on the east coast, where are the new sales?

Dan, are you actively seeking to be the first user to be banned or put in "time-out" on this forum? Every post you have is a negative comment about Nissan, ChaDeMo, or the Leaf's: battery, range, styling, functionality, charger, DCQC port...I could go on. I was really hoping you would read some of the posts in response to yours and some dialogue would develop, but you refuse to do so and just keep up with the negativity. As my mother would tell me when I was young, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I don't know if that's even possible, but he's got a point of view, one based on facts as well as opinions, and he is (or should be) free to express it. Anyone who doesn't find his posts useful can just ignore/block them, just as they can do with any other.

 

[garsh]

There are tens of millions of households that could easily make the Leaf work but can't wrap their mind around the fact that they only drive around 33 miles a day on average, when I say the first major hurdle is psychological, that's what I'm referring to.

I do understand. I just disagree that QC charging can be viewed as making the Leaf a reasonable car for longer journeys.

This is why I started this thread in the first place. I don't think QC charging is fast enough to make it a reasonable alternative to stopping at a gas station. Combine that with the Leaf's short range, and I didn't understand why some people thought that QC charging was a "must-have" feature for a Leaf. I've had some good answers since then, and I summed them up in one of my follow-on posts.

 

[garsh]

Dan, are you actively seeking to be the first user to be banned or put in "time-out" on this forum? Every post you have is a negative comment about Nissan, ChaDeMo, or the Leaf's: battery, range, styling, functionality, charger, DCQC port...I could go on.

Please take a step back, and re-read DANandNAN's posts. He is prolific (and I wish he'd cut down on the quoting a bit), but he's not being unreasonable. I find that I agree with most of what he posts. Beware of becoming so much of a fan boy of EV driving that you can't recognize the valid arguments against it.

 

[GRA]

There are tens of millions of households that could easily make the Leaf work but can't wrap their mind around the fact that they only drive around 33 miles a day on average, when I say the first major hurdle is psychological, that's what I'm referring to.

I do understand. I just disagree that QC charging can be viewed as making the Leaf a reasonable car for longer journeys.

This is why I started this thread in the first place. I don't think QC charging is fast enough to make it a reasonable alternative to stopping at a gas station. Combine that with the Leaf's short range, and I didn't understand why some people though that QC charging was a "must-have" feature for a Leaf. I've had some good answers since then, and I summed them up in one of my follow-on posts.

As you say, it's not a 'reasonable alternative for stopping at a gas station'. It is a reasonable alternative for stopping at a restaurant for a meal en route, which is how many of us would use it, or for topping up in a shorter period of time to get you to your destination. Ideal? No, but much better than L2.

 

[DANandNAN]

There's plenty of "Quick Chargers" on the east coast, where are the new sales?

Dan, are you actively seeking to be the first user to be banned or put in "time-out" on this forum? Every post you have is a negative comment about Nissan, ChaDeMo, or the Leaf's: battery, range, styling, functionality, charger, DCQC port...I could go on. I was really hoping you would read some of the posts in response to yours and some dialogue would develop, but you refuse to do so and just keep up with the negativity. As my mother would tell me when I was young, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I don't know if that's even possible, but he's got a point of view, one based on facts as well as opinions, and he is (or should be) free to express it. Anyone who doesn't find his posts useful can just ignore/block them, just as they can do with any other.

Exactly and thanks.

On another thread someone used the term "functional retard" in a derogatory manner which is obviously extremely offensive and inappropriate. Yet, no one batted an eye, the poster didn't reconsider his words and edit the post. No Leaf owner called him out, and no moderator edited his post. Yet, it's suggested that I should be banned because I disagree with the way the government spends our money?

 

[DANandNAN]

Please take a step back, and re-read DANandNAN's posts. He is prolific (and I wish he'd cut down on the quoting a bit), but he's not being unreasonable. I find that I agree with most of what he posts. Beware of becoming so much of a fan boy of EV driving that you can't recognize the valid arguments against it.

Forgive the quote, but I don't know of any other way to show which users post I'm responding to on the forum. I could certainly trim the quotes but I don't want to leave any salient (or irrelivant) part out and misquote someone. I do get your point though. I've been on other boards where the quotes can be hidden and only shown when you request to see them.

I agree with your point too, I think too many folks are going over the top on this CHAdeMO everywhere thing. It's not the fix we've been waiting for, and neither is the SAE Combo. But, at least the SAE Combo should have users willing to pay for it.

Anyway, I've got a dinner date.

 

[ztanos]

What would be considered all over the east coast? Tennessee? Show me some in GA please and I will tell you about me using them. Then I can tell you that I use them and would pay for them(for a reasonable fee) if necessary. But it is a little disconcerting that you do seem to be so extremely negative about a car that this forum was made for. We get it, you don't like it. Not really sure what it is about the technology that you don't like, but I'm sure you wouldn't have liked the first motor car either. Why do we need that? It can only go so far, my horses can go much farther and I only have to feed it hay. These "gas" stations aren't anywhere and nobody will use them when they become more prevalent because they are charging outrageous prices. Naysayers are in every generation. Technology doesn't care.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the thing is, I rarely stop and charge. I come home and charge and don't wait at all. QC's allow me to choose the Leaf when I'd otherwise have to drive my gas car or decide to go further than planned and don't want to sit and wait for hours. QC's are a much better use of public resources than populating shopping malls, Fred Meyers and Wallgreens with L2's that hardly get used. QC's help make EV's more versatile while we all wait for larger batteries. Once the larger batteries are available, then QC's will make even longer distance travel more convenient. BTW, tomorrow is the first day the west coast green highway will be open to the public. We'll have some real world user feedback to see just how much of a difference they make in a place that has one of the largest per capita's of EV's in the nation!

There are tens of millions of households that could easily make the Leaf work but can't wrap their mind around the fact that they only drive around 33 miles a day on average, when I say the first major hurdle is psychological, that's what I'm referring to.

I do understand. I just disagree that QC charging can be viewed as making the Leaf a reasonable car for longer journeys.

This is why I started this thread in the first place. I don't think QC charging is fast enough to make it a reasonable alternative to stopping at a gas station. Combine that with the Leaf's short range, and I didn't understand why some people thought that QC charging was a "must-have" feature for a Leaf. I've had some good answers since then, and I summed them up in one of my follow-on posts.

 

[garsh]

QC's allow me to choose the Leaf when I'd otherwise have to drive my gas car

I guess the argument comes down to this point. In most such situations, I would choose the gas car.

When EVs have 300+ mile capacity (five hours driving), and can be quick charged in 30 minutes (stop for a meal after 5 hours of driving), then I think we'll have turned a corner where average car buyers (not us) can really start to consider purchasing EVs.

 

[downeykp]

I would tend to agree. Danandnan you are just stating the obvious. Us owners of the Leaf know it's limitations. We have been discussing them for years now. Most of us love what they do and what they stand for. They are a blast to drive and they are not killing the environment like other ice vehicles including the Volt.
I hear the chatter about limitations. What about the real world mileage of the Volt. Ok it does have a ice backup for unlimited mileage, but once the battery is depleted it is just and ordinary vehicle spewing co2 into the atmosphere. I have had mine for a year and have never turtled it. My daughter drives 60 miles round trip to college every day and has not had any issues with the car. At $.10 a kwh it has been a real economical way for her to get to school.

There's plenty of "Quick Chargers" on the east coast, where are the new sales?

Dan, are you actively seeking to be the first user to be banned or put in "time-out" on this forum? Every post you have is a negative comment about Nissan, ChaDeMo, or the Leaf's: battery, range, styling, functionality, charger, DCQC port...I could go on. I was really hoping you would read some of the posts in response to yours and some dialogue would develop, but you refuse to do so and just keep up with the negativity. As my mother would tell me when I was young, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

[DANandNAN]

But it is a little disconcerting that you do seem to be so extremely negative about a car that this forum was made for.

You're mistaken. I do like the Leaf, for what it is. It's not a car we'd buy if it wasn't EV (am I alone there?) but it is an EV and so we're interested and will probably get a 2013 6.6 when they come out - unless the Focus Electric gets to Florida first )and that's looking really possible) and then we'll have a decision to make.

Just because I like something doesn't mean that I have to go all in. You can like the Leaf without becoming a fan boy and refusing to listen to anyone that has anything negative to say

 

[DANandNAN]

QC's allow me to choose the Leaf when I'd otherwise have to drive my gas car

I guess the argument comes down to this point. In most such situations, I would choose the gas car.

When EVs have 300+ mile capacity (five hours driving), and can be quick charged in 30 minutes (stop for a meal after 5 hours of driving), then I think we'll have turned a corner where average car buyers (not us) can really start to consider purchasing EVs.

Very true.

These so called quick charges are not quick. If it takes 50 minutes, and doubles your commute times then it shouldn't be called quick, fast or convenient.

 

[DANandNAN]

I hear the chatter about limitations. What about the real world mileage of the Volt. Ok it does have a ice backup for unlimited mileage, but once the battery is depleted it is just and ordinary vehicle spewing co2 into the atmosphere. I have had mine for a year and have never turtled it. My daughter drives 60 miles round trip to college every day and has not had any issues with the car.

LOL, how do you not see that we're talking about the same thing? You're talking about the Volt's limitation of 40-45 miles, and I'm talking about the Leaf's 65-70 (my usage and I won't go close to turtle, just like I won't drive a car past "E"). Neither is ideal, but most folks can live within the 40-45 mile range and when they can't the Volt has the on-board generator to keep it going. The Leaf/FFE obviously don't have that option.

That's where the difference come in to play. Volt owners aren't screaming for $50K stations to be installed because we're not range-limited. Sure we would like to have more EV miles, but we don't and this is a good compromise for owners (our own EV% is 95%). Just as your Leaf is a good comprise for you and your daughter.

The Volt, the Leaf and the FFE, none is ideal, but folks knew that going in. Leaf owners can't expect the government to spend 50K every few miles for 13K cars when 8 major manufacturers have said they won't use that standard.

 

[ztanos]

Well, I feel somewhat better. I have made 2 replies to his posts now and he has only answered a fragment of them. Guess that is something people were complaining about. Avoiding questions and rambling about the same thing. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.