Will a 2012 Leaf work as only vehicle for me?

[youngr3]

Suggestion: DIY for $100 +/- in materials.

 

[mitch672]

Suggestion: DIY for $100 +/- in materials.

If you read about his garage/house, he needs to install a conduit and trench, its not exactly a do-it-yourself project.

 

[fooljoe]

Well it's certainly doable, but it's likely going to be a whole lot of work or a whole lot of money, or some combination thereof. I recall OP also posted that he could run a cord above ground from a dryer outlet in the main house, but that wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing. So he has options, it's just a question of whether he's committed to getting the Leaf and making it work somehow.

In another thread someone posted that he bought all the materials himself and helped the electrician with the actual work. In the end the guy only charged him $50 and asked for a ride in the Leaf. So in short, don't get scared off by one quote - maybe someone in here can recommend an electrician in your area. That quote did seem pretty shady with the $400 price difference for basically a minor change in parts, then the change in the difference later. You can see here the value in buying the materials yourself.

 

[leaftryer]

$800 with (possible) 30% tax credit wouldn't stop me by itself, but there is more to it than that. Cost of 220W EVSE hardware and permits, very high cost of the vehicle itself (even with the $7500 credit applied, the lease cost advertised for a SL is surprisingly close to a well equipped new BMW 328i) plus the inconvenience and extra cost of having to occasionally rent a vehicle for trips outside of a 30 mile radius away from home.
My current car is not old, so there is nothing stopping me from waiting for Generation 2 of this first round of EVs. In another 5 or 6 years, they should be cheaper with better range and the EVSEs will be cheaper and probably much smaller.
I think my "next" car will probably be an EV of some kind, but I don't want to overpay just so I can have it as an early adopter right now instead of in 5 years.

 

[surfingslovak]

I don't want to overpay just so I can have it as an early adopter right now instead of in 5 years.

This makes sense from an economic standpoint today, and is certainly a shrewd decision. I like being an early adopter and find it exhilarating to participate in the evolution of a new way of doing things. It's not for everyone and it does not always have to work out, but it often does. It won't be quite the same when you buy later, but it will very likely be more economical. The big unknown is the price of oil and government subsidies. The California rebate has already been cut in half.

I would image that by 2015 most of the subsidies will be scaled back, but EVs themselves will be priced more competitively, they will likely have better range and other improvements. It's too early to tell however, and there are too many unknowns to make an informed decision. I considered purchasing a Honda Insight in 2001 and I didn't do it because I could get a used Audi A6 Avant for a few thousand more. I thought that hybrids were unproven technology and will become substantially cheaper. I certainly did not think that gas will approach $4 in a few years time, and I underestimated the demand for hybrid vehicles. Granted, EVs are a different beast and their utility is limited at the moment due to lack of charging infrastructure.

 

[fooljoe]

Imagine if back in 2001 you considered buying a Rav4-EV but decided to wait for the "next-generation" of EVs instead. I wonder how that would've felt when they started reclaiming all the leased EV-1 and Rav4 and others and sent them to the shredder, then a few years later used Rav-EV were selling for $70k... :lol:

 

[leaftryer]

I don't want to overpay just so I can have it as an early adopter right now instead of in 5 years.

This makes sense from an economic standpoint today, and is certainly a shrewd decision. I like being an early adopter and find it exhilarating to participate in the evolution of a new way of doing things. It's not for everyone and it does not always have to work out, but it often does. It won't be quite the same when you buy later, but it will very likely be more economical. The big unknown is the price of oil and government subsidies. The California rebate has already been cut in half.

I would image that by 2015 most of the subsidies will be scaled back, but EVs themselves will be priced more competitively, they will likely have better range and other improvements. It's too early to tell however, and there are too many unknowns to make an informed decision. I considered purchasing a Honda Insight in 2001 and I didn't do it because I could get a used Audi A6 Avant for a few thousand more. I thought that hybrids were unproven technology and will become substantially cheaper. I certainly did not think that gas will approach $4 in a few years time, and I underestimated the demand for hybrid vehicles. Granted, EVs are a different beast and their utility is limited at the moment due to lack of charging infrastructure.

Prices have to fall. If the state and federal tax credits are dropped and the prices stay about the same, EV sales will plummet below even today's small sales numbers and it will be a failure.
Mass sales are needed so more DC quick charging points are set up around the country so it will at least be possible to go twice as far as your range with 30 minute pit stop half way to your destination. Right now, you can't even drive between Sacramento and San Francisco in a Leaf because there are only Level 2 chargers on the route. If you "hypermile" at 38 mph with no a/c or heat, you might make it, but who wants to do that?
How long will it be before more than 100,000 Leafs are sold in the US at the current sales pace? Looks like many, many years especially if sales go down after tax subsidies are dropped.
I'm also concerned about what happens after returning a Leaf after a 3 year lease. 3 years is probably not enough time for anything significant to have changed in EV technology, so the 2015 Leaf will probably be very similar with similar range and The Focus EV probably won't be much different by then either. Lowered or dropped tax credits will make it too expensive to get another unless MSRP is drastically dropped and I would end up just getting a hybrid or plug-in hybrid to replace it.

 

[amtoro]

@leaftryer

I don't want to make a judgment, but it seems to me that all your posts carry an implied negativity towards the LEAF as a vehicle appropriate for you. Almost trying to find posters that support your position. :|

I remember at the Z.E. Tour in Atlanta, there was a guy that kept trying to imply that the LEAF was not for him, range too short, charging to long, can not tow, cannot this, cannot that, too expensive...

The guide stopped his chat and made very clear that he was not there to convince him that this was the car for him, that the LEAF is not a car for everybody, and is not for every household; he said he does not need to sell him a LEAF, that Nissan is selling every single one they can produce.

Maybe the LEAF is not for you, maybe EV's are not for you, maybe the prices are at the limit of your comfort zone; that is ok.

 

[leaftryer]

It may not be for me right now. My house is not laid out well to add 220 economically. I drive a bit too far commuting to reliably always have enough time to trickle charge overnight on 110.
There is no place to rent a Leaf so I can see it for more than a 10 minute drive with a salesman.
Even though the range should be adequate for my current and likely future commute, it will be an added hassle to rent a car when I need to do more than just commute back and forth to work. I will have to drive downtown and park and then take a bus to the rental lot or drive to the airport and pay daily parking fees while I rent a car. Rental places like Enterprise and Hertz Local Edition that pick you up from home, don't operate on weekends so I would have to rent for 3 days picking up on Friday evening after work returning on Monday after work even if I only needed the rental car for a Saturday day trip. Too many compromises for too much money for my situation.
I think I will wait for enhancements in range, increased charging efficiency and reductions in cost.

 

[amtoro]

I think I will wait for enhancements in range, increased charging efficiency and reductions in cost.

I hope to see you on the road one day while driving Zero Emmisions in a car that suits all your needs. The time will come.

À bientôt!

 

[Herm]

A trenching machine rental is about $75 for half a day, I would recommend one if you have rocky soil.. otherwise get a shovel and do it, its not that hard. Similar to laying in a grass sprinkler system.

 

[lukati]

I think I will wait for enhancements in range, increased charging efficiency and reductions in cost.

I'd like to be optimistic about the future economics of purchasing an electric car. But realistically, there will be no miracles in battery technology over the next 3-5 years. As I see it, government subsidies (currently about $11,000 in Illinois) pay about the battery cost differential compared to a regular similarly equipped ICE car. I am not so sure that battery cost can come down in time by this amount so that EVs can be cost-competitive once incentives run out. Illinois is doing poorly financially and it looks like it will be difficult to get a state rebate unless you are an early adopter. We have elections next year, and federal laws can be changed. Now may well be an excellent time to buy an electric car.

 

[leaftryer]

I think I will wait for enhancements in range, increased charging efficiency and reductions in cost.

I'd like to be optimistic about the future economics of purchasing an electric car. But realistically, there will be no miracles in battery technology over the next 3-5 years. As I see it, government subsidies (currently about $11,000 in Illinois) pay about the battery cost differential compared to a regular similarly equipped ICE car. I am not so sure that battery cost can come down in time by this amount so that EVs can be cost-competitive once incentives run out. Illinois is doing poorly financially and it looks like it will be difficult to get a state rebate unless you are an early adopter. We have elections next year, and federal laws can be changed. Now may well be an excellent time to buy an electric car.

Since I would not qualify for the maximum advertised tax incentives (the incentives are *up to* the dollar amount listed), I would lease to get the full dollar amount chopped off the top. I agree that at the end of a 3 year lease, there probably would not be anything significantly changed in the battery technology in that short time. So I would be in a bad situation in 3 years and would not get another EV at an unsubsidized price. Looks like it would be a dead end after the tax benefits are removed unless the manufactures were able to drop the MSRP by so much that subsidies were no longer needed.
This would be so much more attractive of a vehicle if it had a range close to the range of a typical tank of gas (300 or so miles at highway speeds without sparing use of HVAC). Going on a highway road trip in an EV and only stopping to recharge for 30 minutes every 4 hours (get a meal at the same time) instead of needing to stop every 45 minutes at 65 mph could make it a plausible trip vehicle. Is that 20 years away?
The next best thing I would see waiting for would be better plug-in hybrids that you can get now.
A Prius Plug-in Hybrid with 30+ miles EV range instead of 13 miles. A Volt-like vehicle 10-15K cheaper than the 2012 MSRP. 6 years away?

 

[Herm]

There was a recent report that battery manufacturers are quoting $450 per kwh for the 2012 year, a few years ago (2009) it was rumored GM was paying about $1000 per kwh.. if all that is true then we have had extreme price drops and still are using the good old lithium manganese spinel chemistry. We know LiFePO4 can be made even cheaper, its just a matter of economies of scales with present battery tech, no revolutionary new batteries are needed, but they will come anyways.

 

[leaftryer]

There was a recent report that battery manufacturers are quoting $450 per kwh for the 2012 year, a few years ago (2009) it was rumored GM was paying about $1000 per kwh.. if all that is true then we have had extreme price drops and still are using the good old lithium manganese spinel chemistry. We know LiFePO4 can be made even cheaper, its just a matter of economies of scales with present battery tech, no revolutionary new batteries are needed, but they will come anyways.

Too bad GM was so quick to get rid of their Saturn EV in the 90's. By now it the technology would have advanced much further and the Volt wouldn't be $41K with only a 40 mile EV range at this point in time.

I know these car manufacturers want to sell these cars is much higher volume than they are so they can raise their average CAFE and these current small sales numbers of cars scarily priced in the 30K and 40K price ranges are not going to do that.
Maybe if GM gets much more aggressive with incentives and lease deals on the Volt, I'll look at that car at that time and use it as a stop gap car until the full EV vehicles get better range.
Maybe the plug-in hybrid Ford Focus will have better range than the Prius PHV's 13 mile range and it will be something to look at next year.

 

[mitch672]

If you have $90k for an EV, you can plunk down your $40K deposit and get in line for a "signature" edition Tesla Model S, with a 300 mile pack. Deliverys start in mid 2012 or thereabouts. That's what the serious rich EV'ers are going to do...

 

[Herm]

Too bad GM was so quick to get rid of their Saturn EV in the 90's. By now it the technology would have advanced much further and the Volt wouldn't be $41K with only a 40 mile EV range at this point in time.

It just was not practical at the time.. GM should have done the same as Toyota and offered a converted existing vehicle.. instead they went all out and actually developed new tech salted with a lack of common sense all over. Note how all the manufacturers dropped their ev programs the moment CARB did.. Why did GM come back with the Volt?, because the hated Lutz wanted green creds and the example of Tesla, why did Nissan do the Leaf?.. because of the Volt and because Carlos took a big $6 billion gamble.. hopefully the green movement will not collapse again and in truth the battery tech is ready now.

 

[JPWhite]

I need to drive between 30 to 50 miles per day for commuting and I do not want the extra expense of installing a 240 outlet in the garage assuming it can be done at all. The dryer is the house and the garage is detached and it would likely cost more than $1500 for an electrician to run the new circuit and install a basic electric dryer outlet in the garage without it being an external eyesore outside that I wouldn't like to look at myself and that the HOA would not approve even if I didn't care how it looked. On top of this, there would be thousands more for the cost of the charging equipment, permits etc.. I don't think it will be worth the hassle and expense for me especially since I would only lease the vehicle for 3 years with no guarantee I would get another EV. If I conveniently had a 240 power connection already existing in the garage, it would be no problem.

Will 10 hours trickle charging on 110v be enough to to do a 40 mile daily commute with constant a/c or heat use?
Is the A/C powerful enough to cool the interior rapidly in temperatures over 100 degrees or is a weaker than average air conditioner used in the Leaf to reduce power consumption?
If I want to take a road trip past the available charge's range, can the navigation system map you a route that will take you to your destination including stopping at the quick charging stations you would need use along the way automatically or do you need to research this manually and input the stops yourself?
Do you need to buy your own charging cable to use the 480v quick charging stations or are they universal and provided at the stations?

Since there is no regular motor, obviously there is no traditional oil change and tune-up type maintenance needed, but do you have a different type of maintenance you need to visit the dealer for? How much would this cost over 3 years 36K miles at typical dealer rates?
Have you seen insurance cost as being similar, higher or lower than any other $35K vehicle?

A LEAF is certainly NOT a good 'Only' vehicle.

Keep your old ICE car asa backup when you need to make trips beyond the range of the LEAF.

It's great as a primary commuter and around town car, but a touring car it ain't.

 

[tps]

There is no place to rent a Leaf so I can see it for more than a 10 minute drive with a salesman.

Check out both Enterprise and Hertz, they both have a few rental LEAFs. I have been able to rent the Hertz NYC LEAF twice, once in April 2011 and again in August, even though Nissan won't be allowing me to order until December. In April I drove 47 miles during a 3.5 hour rental. In August I drove 275 miles during a 48 hour rental. I was able to drive the LEAF from NYC to my home on the north side of Philly, and I spent the next day driving some of the places which are part of my normal routine. The LEAF was awesome; it will suit my needs perfectly. The LEAF will be my first new car in 40 years of driving!

 

[JPWhite]

. The LEAF will be my first new car in 40 years of driving!

You've got a few years on me, but same here