Yes "clean diesel" really is clean. (ACEEE.org)

[theaveng]

The American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy has given the 2012 Jetta TDI a green score of 48. The Golf, Beetle, and other cars using the same engine also scored 48. This makes the Jetta and other TDIs cleaner than nearly all gasoline cars on the road (except the Chevy Cruze ECO which scored 49).

 

[mkjayakumar]

So what..?

 

[theaveng]

Nobody's forcing you to read it. If your response is "so what?" similar to how I respond "so what?" when I hear news about Britney Spears dating some new guy, then just ignore the news and move along. The rest of us like to pick-out the cleanest cars possible for our needs, and therefore pay attention to ACEEE's green scores.

BTW Nissan Leaf scored 55. Prius got 54. Civic Hybrid 53. And the i-MIEV was given a 58 (cleanest production car ever built).

 

[suresnoi]

"Clean" diesel is a joke. Numbers are numbers when the engine is tested on a bench, not in real life.

In real life diesel -no matter how new they are- isn't even close to being clean. The clean diesel propaganda is nothing more than the result of powerfull lobbies.

 

[TomT]

Actually, that is not true. Modern clean diesels are, in fact, extremely clean. I suggest you do a little more research before posting next time...

"Clean" diesel is a joke. Numbers are numbers when the engine is tested on a bench, not in real life.
In real life diesel -no matter how new they are- isn't even close to being clean. The clean diesel propaganda is nothing more than the result of powerfull lobbies.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Properly maintained clean diesel is pretty clean. I Fords filter their exhaust thru urea to the lean out garbage. I this needs to be refilled. If u don't, u get the check engine light but the vehicle still runs. I have seen a few on the road that I suspect needs to be refilled

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Properly maintained clean diesel is pretty clean. I Fords filter their exhaust thru urea to the lean out garbage. I this needs to be refilled. If u don't, u get the check engine light but the vehicle still runs. I have seen a few on the road that I suspect needs to be refilled

 

[cwerdna]

For the rest of the chart, see http://www.greenercars.org/highlights_greenest.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Actually, that is not true. Modern clean diesels are, in fact, extremely clean. I suggest you do a little more research before posting next time...

Not really. From http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, if you go to the right side, check both checkboxes and select 2012, California, the best score for air pollution score (which counts pollutants such has CO, NOx, particulate matter, etc.) and not CO2 for a diesel (which includes "clean diesels" is a 6/10). The are numerous vehicles that get 8/10 or higher.

If you know of a "clean diesel" found there or at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that scores at 9/10 or higher on the EPA air pollution score, please post it.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=32716&id=33324&id=32509&id=32787" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; under Energy and Environment, California (for State of Purchase) might be interesting to you. At least the 6/10 is an improvement over the 1/10 scores non-"clean" diesels would get. Unfortunately, fueleconomy.gov for some reason is having trouble bringing up EPA smog (air pollution) scores for the (old) dirty diesels I tried looked up.

 

[evnow]

Clean diesel is as clean as the sweet crude is sweet :lol:

ps : clean or unclean is not just in CO2 emissions. Look at all the other pollutants as well. The main reason we have so many diesels in EU, but so few in US is because US emission regulations are strict on other pollutants too. In EU they are rather lax.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

if u burn fossil fuels, then its dirty period. the study that came out a while back comparing the "dirtiness" level of charging your EV on the grid assigning an MPG rating based on how dirty the grid is was pretty one-sidedly for EVs DESPITE the fact that there was NO MENTION of the pollution created getting the gas into the tank of the car.

add that in there and even the best hybrids in the US would be dirtier than the 100% coal powered grid of the North Central US.

the other thing we need to look at is the dozen (who knows? I dont, but doubt there is much of them) EVs that are in MT or ND sucking up 100% coal fired power is a drop in the bucket compared to where the bulk of EVs charge so to weight the dirtiness of EVs equally across the country is also just more points for gasoline

 

[Herm]

NOx emissions are still an issue for clean diesels, that is what causes smog.. about equivalent to a 1995 gasoline car I believe.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the whole clean diesel thing is like 30 years too late, IMHO. I was on the bio-diesel TDI kick for quite some time following 911. I eventually came to the conclusion that burning anything for transporation is just simply out dated technology. bottom line, we need to stop combusting, the term "clean burning" is a bit of an oxymoron with respect to the fact that at this point, even if you burn completely, you still end up with CO2 and water and that CO2 is acidifying the ocean and making the atmosphere like a warm blanket around the planet... even pure CO2 is essentially toxic at this point because of the extreme situation we are now in.

 

[theaveng]

In real life diesel -no matter how new they are- isn't even close to being clean. The clean diesel propaganda is nothing more than the result of powerfull lobbies.

Then why did ACEEE.org rate the TDI as clean as a Honda Fit, Ford Focus, Toyota Yaris, et cetera? These guys are Greens (environmentalists). They hate diesels just as much as you do, but in this case they told the truth: The TDI is as clean as its other 40+ MPG gasoline counterparts.

 

[theaveng]

NOx emissions are still an issue for clean diesels, that is what causes smog.. about equivalent to a 1995 gasoline car I believe.

No. The Jetta and other TDIs are equivalent to my Honda Insight: Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV-II by California's smog testing). They are far, far cleaner than the old 1995 gasoline car.

As "cool" as I think electric cars are, there's no way that they could carry me on my recent 3000 mile journey from L.A. to the Northeast. You still need liquid fuel for that task, and also for freight trucks shipping your Christmas presents. Diesel and gasoline-powered vehicles aren't disappearing any time soon.

 

[hill]

NOx emissions are still an issue for clean diesels, that is what causes smog.. about equivalent to a 1995 gasoline car I believe.

No. The Jetta and other TDIs are equivalent to my Honda Insight: Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV-II by California's smog testing).

As "cool" as I think electric cars are, there's no way that they could carry me on my recent 3000 mile journey from L.A. to the Northeast. You still need liquid fuel for that task, and also for freight trucks shipping your Christmas presents. Diesel and gasoline-powered vehicles aren't disappearing any time soon.

That's right ... we certainly couldn't built electric high speed trains to cross the U.S. ... massive electric infrastructure ... that's crazy talk.

 

[theaveng]

Mr. Sarcasm:
Cross-country trains run off diesel, not electricity. And yes in theory a train could carry my christmas present from Amazon.com in California to my family on the east coast, but it would be SLOW. Go look-up the delivery times & costs in the pre-gasoline age. Sears delivered items out of its catalog in *months* not days, using the old steamtrain system.

And you still need a gasoline or diesel-powered freight truck to carry the package from the Philadelphia station to my home (and other homes). Those delivery trucks drive several hundred miles in a single day..... far beyond the range of battery power. You need liqud fuel for that task. (And you need liquid fuel for MY recent 3000-mile journey from L.A. to the northeast.)

 

[ksnogas2112]

the other thing we need to look at is the dozen (who knows? I dont, but doubt there is much of them) EVs that are in MT or ND sucking up 100% coal fired power is a drop in the bucket compared to where the bulk of EVs charge so to weight the dirtiness of EVs equally across the country is also just more points for gasoline

I'm almost 100% coal powered. Given the 100 or so Leafs in the metro and the likelihood that we're all charging at night, the additional draw of 100 EV's would have 0 impact on the grid if we were plugged in or not. This means the utility will burn just as much coal regardless if we're plugged in or not.

Now, change that in a couple years to maybe 1000-2000 EV's, then the impact to coal use at night might be higher. Hopefully by that time there will be more wind and solar in the grid than there is now. It's been said before but I'll say it again, EV's are the only vehicles that get cleaner/greener the longer you own them because the grid keeps getting cleaner.

Edit regarding delivery trucks -- http://green.autoblog.com/2012/12/04/smith-electric-vehicles-will-build-big-electric-vans-in-chicago/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[theaveng]

Coal is clean anyway. As my EV hobby friends have told me, a modern coal plant is 70% efficient with no measureable output (the stacks are scrubbed). As for TDIs several things have changed to make them cleaner:

- Diesel had the sulfur removed so it's as clean as gasoline now
- That enabled better catalytic converters equal to those in gas cars
- And there's a soot trap to capture & burn off the particulate matter

Hence the ULEV-II designation by the CARB. Ford claims its diesel Focus would qualify as a SULEV if they brought it over from Europe to America. Honda makes the same claim for its diesel Civic (which is tuned more like a gasoline car than a diesel car).

 

[Stoaty]

Coal is clean anyway. As my EV hobby friends have told me, a modern coal plant is 70% efficient with no measureable output (the stacks are scrubbed).

How many of the coal plants operating today are "modern"? You mean the modern coal plants don't put out ANY mercury? No particulate matter at all? Kind of hard to believe. How exactly do they scrub the CO2 created by burning coal? As you may know, CO2 is a pollutant too.

Here is info on just how "clean" coal really is:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Environmental_impacts_of_coal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Mercury_and_coal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Particulates_and_coal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ksnogas2112]

How many of the coal plants operating today are "modern"?

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