GRA
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:46 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:36 am
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:10 pm

GRA wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:46 pm
EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:36 am
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).
It will not sell like the 3. Charge faster where? Good luck for now.

GRA
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:20 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:10 pm
GRA wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:46 pm
EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:36 am
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).
It will not sell like the 3. Charge faster where? Good luck for now.

Are you referring to the Polestar etc., or the Taycan? if the latter, of course the Taycan won't sell like the Model 3, as it's far more expensive and will directly compete with the Model S. The Polestar slots in between the 3 and S pricewise. As to where the Taycan can charge faster, as I mentioned above, in the U.S. any EA hwy site and a few EVgo ones; in much of western Europe, with density and coverage increasing rapidly.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:45 pm

Some more details of what led up to the Walmart suit, via GCR: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... lar-panels
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:19 pm

GRA wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:45 pm
Some more details of what led up to the Walmart suit, via GCR: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... lar-panels
Too bad it lacks the detail and redactions in the filings where Walmart is playing games. There is always another side not to mention the lack of crazy details.

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:49 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:36 am
cwerdna wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:49 am
goldbrick wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:24 pm
That could all be true but the 'general public' often doesn't know or care as much about the facts as they probably should. Ie, image matters a lot and people can be biased for no good reason. That's one reason companies care so much about their image and reputation in the marketplace and why a CEO (or company) who seems arrogant and smarter than everyone can piss a lot of people off. And folks who have a choice usually will pick a product from a company that they feel good about, for better or worse. For now, Tesla is the cool choice for the early adopters and techno-geeks and self-styled cool kids. For Joe Sixpack in Toledo, not so much.
Indeed on all of the above. I work in Silicon Valley and my company is partially a tech company. We have tons of Teslas and it seems like we have some fanboys amongst us.

At the same time, Elon is very polarizing. When Elon tweeted that you had to work 80 to 100 hours/week to "change the world" (https://www.inc.com/business-insider/el ... world.html), there was some REALLY negative reaction from some folks within my company.
Yes Millennials don't generally like to work much at all and everyone lovers long hours. There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. What is doing very well is Tesla FUD and stock manipulators as well as experts on the Tesla products that have never driven one. Not to mention auto journalists that give bad reviews on AP while having AP turned off during testing claiming it does not work. The nonsense and ignorance is surreal.
You're pointing out the result, but not the why.

Why are there no competitors with Tesla? Hint: nobody really cares to make one.

Although that was a statement I made a few months ago as well. It's not true anymore. Anybody who's read a review of the Taycan and was thinking about a model s is probably closing their wallet.

It dawned on me a year or two ago that the reason there was no competition was simply a lack of will, not ability, and that in time the competition would come in. They are doing that now. The Taycan is a superior EV to the Model S.

As for FUD, dishonesty is lauded more by musk than anybody else. Didn't he say there would be a million car robo fleet next year? And he said that recently! The guy is a bullshit artist. Don't forget about the teslas which are supposedly going to appreciate in value. When backed into a corner he just starts making ever more ridiculous claims.
Last edited by EatsShootsandLeafs on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:52 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:10 pm
GRA wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:46 pm
EVDRIVER wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:36 am
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).
It will not sell like the 3. Charge faster where? Good luck for now.
Taycan is not a competitor with the 3.

And as for competing with the Model S, let's put guessing aside and go with Motortrend's opinion. Bold is mine.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-po ... a-fighter/
Should Tesla be worried? Absolutely. Even from the passenger seat, it's clear the Porsche is dynamically superior in every way. And if the numbers we've seen hold up under our testing, go-fast Teslas such as the Model S 100D may not have a decisive range advantage over the Taycan, especially when driven hard. Combine that with noticeably better build quality—even on the preproduction car—and the cachet of that Porsche badge, and it all adds up to one thing: The Taycan is a game-changer.
Much conjecture over the past couple of years about what would happen when a real car company put their weight behind an EV. And now we know. Big surprise, it turns out that those dinosaur car companies actually are pretty good at making EVs if they really want to.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:26 pm

Name one.

GRA
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:39 pm

EVDRIVER wrote: Name one.

Obviously he just did, so why be deliberately obtuse? And why should this be a surprise? It's not as if there aren't plenty of legacy car manufacturers fully capable of producing an excellent BEV if they want to. Here's Car and Driver's take, from their first ride-along in a prototype: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a2 ... type-ride/

Note that Porsche is now claiming a sub-3.0 sec. 0-60 time, down from their earlier, more conservative 3.5 sec. claim. Something I hadn't seen before is that the Taycan will have a two-speed rear axle. I suspect this one will be a lot more reliable than the one in the early Tesla roadsters, but we'll see. One potential sales downside vs. the S is that it will be a sedan and not a hatch, which will definitely lessen the appeal to some.

In other news, via IEVS:
Nextmove Refutes Tesla On Order Cancellation: With Documents
https://insideevs.com/news/366374/nextm ... documents/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:22 pm

That car with options will be very expensive, have very limited charging network and will not be mass produced. The market share will no be any competitive threat to Tesla models and you can get a 3P that will perform at 95% for half the cost, is more efficient, has more range and you can drive distances. Wait for until people actually own and drive these cars.

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