Timaz
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Official Toyota Prius PHEV thread

Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:31 pm

This article really helped give me some perspective on how far ahead Nissan may be with the Leaf. I bought my Toyota prius and marveled at the ingenuity Toyota had when developing this vehicle. What happened? Did they just stop investing in R&D? Why did they shy away from developing an electric vehicle? I think they have lost their edge with this Plug-in vehicle. 12 miles on all electric? The reviewer could not even truly get that on these test vehicles they received. I do not think there will be a market for this car. The current buyers would pick a Volt or Leaf much less the plethora of vehicles coming to market by the time they get around to producing these. What a waste in my opinion.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/rev" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sp=usat.me
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LakeLeaf
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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:54 pm

I would respectfully disagree that the PHEV Prius isn't an attractive purchase.

PriusChat has a topic about a group who has test driven the cars with multiple drivers over multiple routes in everyday driving situations, with the group averaging 83 MPG. (Of course - there is a lot of commuting to work, so many of the trips are shorter and mostly EV mode to get that high a number)

A car that you might end up getting that kind of mileage, with the benefits of 3 hours to recharge, and more then 600 miles of range in the tank, at least to me, is quite attractive. I think it will be a big hit - and would be even bigger if Toyota decided to roll it out 6-12 months earlier then the projected introduction date. It would be great if the PHEV got more EV range - even 20-25 miles of EV - but it doesn't look like that is in the cards at this point.

The DOE study that we looked at a few months ago claims that even in California and the Northwest, which have the cleanest production of electricity in the country, a car that gets over 75 MPG produces less carbon emissions then an all electric vehicle. The PHEV is going to be right around that number when you account for it's power from electricity + power from gas.

5-10 years from now, I'd expect to see EV's with ranges in the 500-1000 miles per charge range. That kind of range makes the EV attractive for a much broader audience - although it will be interesting to see what needs to be done to charge 500-1000 miles of range into the car overnight. Maybe they'll have ultracapacitors figured out by then, so the charging will be fast - but batteries may be an interesting challenge.

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evnow
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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:00 pm

LakeLeaf wrote:PriusChat has a topic about a group who has test driven the cars with multiple drivers over multiple routes in everyday driving situations, with the group averaging 83 MPG. (Of course - there is a lot of commuting to work, so many of the trips are shorter and mostly EV mode to get that high a number)
That is a bogus number. It doesn't account for the electricity used to charge the battery.

I'm always fascinated by PriusChat people who use this kind of made up number and at the same time criticise Volt.
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DaveEV
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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:59 pm

I think the Prius PHEV would be a wonderful 2nd car to the LEAF. Even 12 miles EV range would eliminate a LOT of gas in our 2nd car, but the batteries to support that range would not be too expensive or heavy so you don't end up carrying around a lot of extra weight when you do need to travel farther.

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evnow
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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:05 pm

drees wrote:I think the Prius PHEV would be a wonderful 2nd car to the LEAF. Even 12 miles EV range would eliminate a LOT of gas in our 2nd car, but the batteries to support that range would not be too expensive or heavy so you don't end up carrying around a lot of extra weight when you do need to travel farther.
From what I've seen on Toyota webste, phev prius battery weighs almost half of Leafs (40%?) - and yet gives only 1/8th the EV range. Not sure what to make of that.
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DaveEV
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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:18 pm

evnow wrote:From what I've seen on Toyota webste, phev prius battery weighs almost half of Leafs (40%?) - and yet gives only 1/8th the EV range. Not sure what to make of that.
Well, with a smaller battery they will have to use higher power cells since they will be pushed harder. Compared to the LEAF which uses higher energy cells.

So in general, PHEV batteries will have less energy per kg but EV batteries will have less power per kg.

That probably accounts for a large portion of the discrepancy - I'm sure that there is also some room for improvement since all the Prius PHEVs we've seen haven't even been pre-production units - more proof-of-concept units.

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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:22 pm

Toyota hasn't released the actual PRODUCTION PHEV range, yet. The fleet of 160 DEMO verhicles in the US for the last year for testing have the 12 mile range, with 3 battery packs. No one has said that is the EXACT vehicle Toyotal will produce in 2012, and that it will "only" have 12 miles of range. The test fleet is built around a modified 2010 Prius, Toyota always has a few tricks up their sleeves, such as teaming up with Tesla to reintroduce the RAV4 EV wth the Tesla drivetrain, etc. Don't coun't Toyota out just yet, they typically are very conservative and will not release a product until its ready, and they know they can stand behind it. I expect that is the situation here as well, with the PHEV.
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Train
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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:43 pm

5-10 years from now, I'd expect to see EV's with ranges in the 500-1000 miles per charge range.
I'm not so confident. If they could get it to 300, that would be an accomplishment.

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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:14 pm

Train wrote:
5-10 years from now, I'd expect to see EV's with ranges in the 500-1000 miles per charge range.
I'm not so confident. If they could get it to 300, that would be an accomplishment.
Well, Tesla already has 240 mi range - 300 mi range could be done today simply by using Panasonic's latest batteries instead of the older ones. Of course, the Tesla battery pack costs as much as the entire LEAF!

Not to mention, that anything more than 300-500mi range or so is overkill. I would be happy with 200mi range at highway speeds and the ability to recharge to 80% in 30 minutes. Usually after driving 3+ hours you are ready for a short break, anyway.

Sure, it would be nice to have 500mi range on those very rare trips where I am driving all day, but I can't think of an all-day trip where I did not stop at least 3 times for 10-30 minutes.

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Re: Toyota Prius PHEV Review

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:14 pm

I'm sure that Tesla range isn't 240 miles with A/C on and going 70 mph.

I'm talking a realistic highway range of 300 miles at highway speeds. The speed limit in CA is 70 and in AZ it is 75.

Most any gasoline engine car can go 300 miles at highway speeds without stopping for fuel. Then it's 5 minutes to fuel and another 300 miles or more. Many, considerably more.

Until they solve this issue, and the long charge times, EV's will remain urban commuters. And expensive urban commuters at that.

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