LeftieBiker
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The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:42 pm

https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/10/toy ... rid-tease/

Thanks to the highly popular Prius, Toyota helped make the hybrid a viable alternative to gas-only vehicles. A few years ago, it added a plug-in version, the Prius Prime to compete with the likes of the Chevy Volt. Now it's adding that option to the number one selling SUV in the United States, the 2021 RAV4.

Ahead of the LA Auto Show, Toyota announced that the RAV4 would get the plug-in hybrid treatment. Like most automotive teases ahead of a major event, we don't know much about the upcoming vehicle. There's no word on price, range, battery size etc.
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jjeff
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:27 pm

If it's anything like Toyota's previous PHEV offerings it will fall-short of expectations :(
The Outlander PHEV SUV can do mid 20s EV only range, while the Chrysler PHEV mini-van can do 30+ miles, I'd hope the Rav4 would better those two but I really have my doubts.....Like the Prime it would sure be nice if it had the slightly more expensive heat pump heater, something neither of the two other models I mentioned do :(
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LeftieBiker
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:33 pm

My guess is that it will have the Prime's drivetrain squeezed in around the RAV-4's rear electric motor. Either that or it won't have an AWD option. I too hope for the heat pump and heated steering wheel, with a better driving experience and more cargo room. (Although my housemate has no intention of giving up her beloved old PIP.) AER will probably be a whopping 20 miles. ;-(
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HerdingElectrons
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:06 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:33 pm
My guess is that it will have the Prime's drivetrain squeezed in around the RAV-4's rear electric motor. Either that or it won't have an AWD option. I too hope for the heat pump and heated steering wheel, with a better driving experience and more cargo room. (Although my housemate has no intention of giving up her beloved old PIP.) AER will probably be a whopping 20 miles. ;-(
Considering the Prime's ICE is a 1.8L engine compared to the RAV-4/Camry/Avalon/Lexus NX200's ICE is 2.5L I highly doubt it.

More likely we will see a larger than the Prime's 8.8kWh pack to support the current draw of the heavier cars & performance expectations of those vehicle types because the electric motors are higher output & will require a larger pack.

Considering the the e-AWD is a small electric motor that operates in a very narrow low speed condition I don't see that being a big packaging obstacle relative to where the packs are located in the vehicles. Some loss of cargo space is more likely to occur IMO.

For funsies I'm gonna guess the pack size will be around 11-12kWh & the vehicles will have 20-25 miles of AER. Hopefully the heat pump will be standard considering the price point of the aforementioned vehicles.
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SageBrush
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:28 am

Toyota is all about iterative designs. Since the RAV PHEV is very likely going to be a RAV hybrid with plug-in shoehorned inside and not a new design starting from a battery skate I also expect a Prime in Rav clothing, albeit with a larger ICE than Prime's 1.8L. Perhaps 2.2L or 2.5L. Whatever the RAV hybrid has today.

PIP battery is 4.4 kWh
Prime battery is 8.8 kWh
I'll guess 13.2 kWh (4.4 *3) kWh for the PHEV

Toyota has up till now made ~ 63% of the nominal kWh capacity usable so if that continues it will work out to 13.2*0.63 = 8.18 kWh
At 350 Wh/mile EPA the vehicle will have 8.18/0.35 = 23.3 miles of combined range.

Will it sell well ? I think it depends on HOV access. The tax credit works out to ~ $6,000 if my battery assumptions are correct. PHEV really is a brilliant design** as implemented by Toyota, but it is in general not used as intended with daily charging. People buy them for the perks.

** The year I owned my Prius Prime I used it mostly for my 90 mile commute to work. I would add 6 kWh of electricity from the meter and I averaged just under 100 mpg as a 4 season average. It was quite amazing.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:43 pm

Considering the the e-AWD is a small electric motor that operates in a very narrow low speed condition I don't see that being a big packaging obstacle relative to where the packs are located in the vehicles. Some loss of cargo space is more likely to occur IMO.
The rear motor is the reason Toyota gave, IIRC, for not offering AWD on the Prime - no room for both the larger pack and the rear motor. Maybe the RAV-4 has more space back there. Given the info about available ICEs I think I agree with Sagebrush: the larger ICE in the otherwise Prime drivetrain. I'm not sure I agree about a larger pack; that will depend on available space. They may simply up the percentage of available capacity used to the same 80% as the Prius II and settle for 20 miles of AER.
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SageBrush
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:28 pm

^^ motor power/weight increases every generation so it is hard to guess what space constraints occur in a RAV. One thing I am reasonably sure of though -- PHEV buyers expect EV mode while they have usable battery capacity above that required for hybrid operation, and ace-ing the EPA test requires it too. The Prime motor as we know it is not powerful enough for the heavier RAV.

I was not clear -- when I said Prime in a RAV I was thinking of general drivetrain architecture and modular packs, not the exact same motor.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:22 pm

That was also what I meant, at least after learning that there is a larger ICE available.
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:55 pm

Now that we know the car will be called the RAV4 Prime, the OP should change the topic title. GCC:
Toyota’s new RAV4 plug-in hybrid SUV offers 39 miles AER, 90 MPGe
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/1 ... rav4p.html

At the Los Angeles Auto Show, Toyota introduced its new plug-in hybrid (PHEV) RAV4 performance model with an estimated 302-horsepower, advanced all-wheel drive, sport-tuned suspension and exclusive design features.

In addition to an ability to do 0-60 mph in a projected 5.8 seconds—the second quickest acceleration time in the Toyota lineup—the 2021 RAV4 Prime has an estimated 39 miles of all-electric range—the highest AER of any PHEV SUV on the market. . . The Toyota RAV4 Prime will come to market in summer 2020. . . .

The 2021 RAV4 Prime will be available in SE and XSE grades, both emphasizing athletic on-road performance and premium comfort and style. . . .

The Toyota RAV4 Prime builds on the RAV4 Hybrid. With more powerful motor-generators, a newly developed high-capacity Lithium-Ion battery and a booster converter, the 2021 RAV4 Prime yields an 83-horsepower (hp) jump in total system output over the RAV4 Hybrid and has the most horsepower in its segment. . . .

Notably, the RAV4 Prime uses regular-grade gasoline. . . .

The RAV4 Prime’s passenger space isn’t compromised by the larger Lithium-Ion battery, as it is mounted under the floor. . . .

The RAV4 Prime’s enhanced heat pump HVAC system, based on Prius Prime’s and tailored to fit RAV4 Prime, contributes to an increasing EV range, as energy consumption for cabin temperature control can significantly decrease EV driving range.

The RAV4 Prime employs the same version of Electronic On-Demand All-Wheel Drive (AWD) as the RAV4 Hybrid. In both models, a separate rear-mounted electric motor powers the rear wheels when needed, including proactively on acceleration startup and also in reduced-traction conditions. . . .

With available paddle shifters, the driver can “downshift” to increase the regenerative braking in steps, which fosters greater control when driving in hilly areas, for example. . . .

As on the RAV4 Hybrid, the innovative Predictive Efficient Drive feature acts like an invisible “hyper-miler” co-driver. Using the available navigation system, Predictive Efficient Drive essentially reads the road and learns driver patterns to optimize hybrid battery charging and discharging operations based on driving conditions. The system accumulates data as the vehicle is driven and “remembers” road features such as hills and stoplights and adjusts the hybrid powertrain operation to maximize efficiency.

All Toyota RAV4 models come equipped with standard Toyota Safety Sense (TSS 2.0), which groups a long roster of active-safety technologies and capabilities:

Pre-Collision System with Pedestrian Detection (PCS w/PD)
Full-Speed Range Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (DRCC)
Lane Departure Alert with Steering Assist (LDA w/SA)
Automatic High Beam (AHB)
Lane Tracing Assist (LTA)
Road Sign Assist (RSA)

The XSE Premium Package adds Rear Cross Traffic Braking (RCTB) and Front and Rear Parking Assist with Automated Braking (PA w/AB).

Starting with the 2020 model year, every Toyota Hybrid Battery Warranty has been increased from 8 years or 100,000 miles to 10 years from original date of first use, or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first.

IEVS article:
Toyota RAV4 Prime Is The Most Powerful And Most Efficient Ever
https://insideevs.com/news/383296/toyot ... efficient/


Man, depending on the price and the handling, a PHEV just moved higher in consideration for me. I still wish it were a bit smaller, but otherwise . . . Of course, I'll still have to wait out the people with money burning holes in the pockets who are willing to pay an ADM, and in any case I prefer not to buy a car in its first year of availability so the company can work out some of the bugs. It may be 2021 before I decide, and there may be other options by then, but this really puts the Outlander and Crosstrek PHEVs in the shade, even if they hadn't just lost their CVRP eligibility.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jjeff
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:28 am

And for anyone wondering the engine size:
"The RAV4 Prime uses a differently tuned version of the RAV4 Hybrid’s 2.5-liter four-cylinder Atkinson-cycle gasoline engine. It produces the same projected 176 hp as in the hybrid, but paired with the electric motors, total system output equals 302 horsepower.
While I'm glad it's just a 4, unlike other RAV4's that use a V-6, personally I wish it didn't have such a powerful engine. No matter what they say I can't believe if it had a more moderate HP ICE they couldn't have gotten even better EPA numbers....IMO having such a powerful engine only tempts people to use the available HP, therefor decreasing MPG. Now after reading some of the comments in the links I see the increased HP could be due to the larger battery not so much a powerful ICE and the fact that if the battery got depleted Toyota wouldn't want the vehicle to be a total stone, unable to get out of it's own way.....they may have a point and I'd be open to rethinking my initial thoughts about too much HP.
Another advantage of more HP is the ability to tow more, wonder if the RAV4 will be tow rated? shame if it's not with all that HP, even 2500lbs(3500 would be better) would do it for me. Now I understand, any vehicle can tow, case in point my new '94 1L(3-cyl) 69hp Geo Metro I had a 1000lb 100lb tongue weight hitch installed(not rated by Chevy) and occasionally towed such weights, but I'm talking about mfg rated.
Overall I'm quite excited and will be more excited if I see ICE only MPG approaching 40, love the fact it has a heat pump and +30 mile EV range, both which the PHEV Outlander lacks, add heated seats and steering wheel and something I can fit into and price it under $40k after rebates or tax credits and I think I know what my next vehicle will be :)
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