Point is it worked, and it was not a hypothetical situation by any means. Are you angry that I don't need a Volt or something?
No, I'm not angry about anyone's choice of car. I just am puzzled why people are criticizing the Volt as unsuited to any application, saying there's no reason to own one, using arguments that are completely illogical, and make no sense to me. Being able to make your long trip in a Leaf doesn't have any relevance to what I was arguing in favor of. I'd like them to either stop saying there's no reason to choose a Volt, or come up with better arguments with some actual logic behind them.
stephent wrote:I'm saying *most people* have a short commute. I'm saying that *most people* also take trips that exceed EV range of both vehicles.
You have data on the first claim. You don't have data on the second claim.
OK, I don't have the stats for this. But are you basically claiming that most people never drive more than 80 miles at a time, and want me to have data on this to prove the second claim? I think that's nuts, I can't think of anyone I know who never drives > 80 miles, except for a couple elderly relatives who have given up long distance driving (who occasionally get rides from me for longer trips), and another who can't drive at all since incapacitated by a stroke some years ago. Everyone else of legal driving age I know drives long distances on occasion.
Do you know lots of people who never, ever drive more than 80 miles? Compared to the number who do?
But when I try to quantify how often those trips are - because frequency makes all the difference - you immediately fall back on the BTS data. If you want to talk about long trips, let's talk about long trips. The BTS data is useless here because it tells us nothing about frequency.
No, I was not falling back on BTS data for that purpose. I quoted BTS data, because you and AndyH were bringing up regular long commute situations (your calculations for the 120 mile daily commute), and disputing my assertion that they were uncommon/far-fetched. Even though long commute situations were not at all relevant to the points I was initially making!
I'm happy to talk about infrequent long trips. Let's stick with infrequent long trips. I agree that BTS data is totally irrelevant to long trips. In return, maybe you drop bringing up regular long commute situations, which are also irrelevant.
I'll go back to my pickup truck example: Most people don't need a pickup truck, some people do. Some people buy a pickup truck because they think they might need it occasionally, but in fact the need does not justify the decision. The same is true with the Volt, although the parameters are much more intricate.
This argument is extremely weak, and easily dismissed, because of the magnitude of the parameters involved. Using a pickup truck vs. an EV, for a short commute, extracts a gasoline usage penalty of perhaps a gallon of gas every commuting day, resulting in the extra use of HUNDREDS of gallons of gas per year. Plus, there is no situation where the pickup truck saves any gas over the alternative.
In contrast, using a Volt vs. a Leaf for a short commute, extracts a gasoline usage penalty from the maintenance mode of half a gallon a year at most! Do you see no difference between a penalty of hundreds of gallons, vs. half a gallon? Plus, the Volt saves gas vs. an ICE on the occasional longer trips, which will make that half gallon completely irrelevant!
The Volt is justifiable for its occasional use on longer trips, because the penalty on the very regular shorter trips is very close to zero. If the penalty was much, much larger, THEN you could use the pickup truck argument. But the penalty is not at all big enough for the pickup truck to be a relevant analogy.
When you boil it down, the short commutes are basically a wash and completely insignificant. The gasoline usage comparison is dominated by whether the infrequent long trips are mostly in the Leaf extra 40-80 miles, or mostly 80+. Every mid-range trip saves some fraction of a gallon up to a gallon in favor of the Leaf. Every longer range trip saves more than a gallon in favor of the Volt, especially if the Volt has better MPG than the alternate ICE. So it just depends how many of each you take, the specific details. In-trip charging of course alters the parameters.
But I'll admit the Volt is good for the "occasional" long trip (for varying values of "occasional") if you admit there are plausible situations where buying a Volt over a BEV actually wastes gas
I've already admitted this.
and you stop bringing up "oh they'd have to borrow an ICEv for that" scenario.
I don't see why I have to stop this. It's the crux of the whole argument of Leaf vs. Volt. Otherwise the Leaf owner gets a completely free pass for all his ICE usage. Only the ultra-purists who never ever drive ICE or get rides from people with ICE get to say this doesn't apply to them.