DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14389
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:19 am

Smidge204 wrote:
DarkStar wrote:I have never, never, had my tank filled or seen someone else get theirs filled within 2 minutes (I'm in Oregon though... no self-serve gas). Most gas stations you have to wait in line for, and then wait for the attendant. But then again, what I meant is that when you need one, they'll be plentiful and everywhere you go.

Waiting in line doesn't matter
doesnt matter TO WHO??!!! because i sure as hell dont feel that way and i guess the only one who would feel that way is the person who does not think its a inconvenience to get gas. i dont know ANYONE like that


The notion that you'll leave the house 10 minute earlier and stop by the charging station on your way to work, like you would for gasoline, is completely unrealistic.
umm which is why u plug it in while at home? 110 may be slow but it will work for most of us. 240 is nothing but overhyped BS made to conform to peoples comfort zone
Opportunity charging is not just the optimal model, but really the only workable model. Battery swap stations would only be a niche service that has it's own set of (solvable) problems, but that's another topic.
=Smidge=
bingo!! and the ultimate goal is charging your car ALL the time when its parked ANYWHERE
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tps
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:40 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 18044
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:48 am

Smidge204 wrote:The "gas station" model for EV charging is wrong because a centralized facility for charging is actually counter-productive. Electricity is a low density, high efficiency energy. Hydrocarbon fuel is high density, inefficient energy. That's your trade off, and you pay for it with time-to-transfer. The notion that you'll leave the house 10 minute earlier and stop by the charging station on your way to work, like you would for gasoline, is completely unrealistic. Opportunity charging is not just the optimal model, but really the only workable model.
This requires a paradygm shift, something many are not able to do until they see others who have already made the shift. IMHO, Nissan's tag line Shift the way you move is very appropriate; they need to shift the way people think! Here are some examples of quotes from thoses who hadn't yet made a paradygm shift:
http://wilk4.com/humor/humore10.htm

Smidge204
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:53 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:doesnt matter TO WHO??!!!
To the laws of physics! :D


I apologize if the context of what I'm saying isn't clear. Here's the comment I was originally addressing:
DarkStar wrote:Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one...
Which I take some issue with, since I spent a lot of time arguing against the idea of charging stations being the 1:1 equivalent of gas stations - and argument EV opponents often try to make. My point is there are many reasons that prevent recharging an EV as fast as a gasoline vehicle refuels since electrical energy can only be transferred as a comparatively low rate. That's why the "waiting" portion of your time at a gas station is not relevant when comparing the two at that level.

Electric vehicles require rethinking of how the energy is managed. Right now, vehicle energy (fuel) is managed and distributed at central depots (gas stations). Some people argue that EVs will not be viable because they will not be able to stop at a "charging station" and refill their battery as quickly as they can a gas tank - and they are correct.

My counter-argument is that the very idea of a "central charging depot" is flawed to begin with. People need to discard the idea of needing a special, dedicated facility to re-energize their vehicle.

That is the "paradigm shift" we need as tps so eloquently put it.
=Smidge=

GroundLoop
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:53 am

My concern with opportunistic charging is that it simply won't scale.

If 10% of Costco's shoppers come in expecting to plug in, that is a whole lot of L2 chargers needed. If there is contention (more cars than chargers), I don't have a lot of faith in my fellow Costco chargers to default to a cooperative system for fair use. I've seen how parking works, shopping carts, and any of the other abused "commons".

It works fine when there are two chargers at a store, and EVs are a novelty. I just don't see this persisting if you predict a future swap of all the Prius cars to EVs. The local mall has "Hybrid Parking Only" spaces (as if more Smug was needed). They're always taken. If this was the ONLY place Hybrids could park, it would fail.

My prediction: Charging is done at your two "home base" locations, maybe work and home.

I have no intention at all of ever taking an "extra-range" trip, with a mandatory charge break. Two reasons:
1) I have no control or priority for the expected charger mid-way
2) I don't want to wait for a charge. If I'm driving 100+ miles to begin with, that's a long time in the car. Adding 30 minutes for a quick charge is just not something I'm going to embrace.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14389
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:01 pm

its easy to understand the doubts raised with being able to charge everywhere. we are currently so far from that in both the physical and psychological.

and we have a choice. we can either move towards a time where 90% of the parking is devoted to EV's with the remaining gas cars relegated to the back row only or not.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
LEAFer
Posts: 2647
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 19 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 000215
Location: Sacramento Area

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:26 pm

GroundLoop wrote:2) I don't want to wait for a charge. If I'm driving 100+ miles to begin with, that's a long time in the car. Adding 30 minutes for a quick charge is just not something I'm going to embrace.
Actually ... that 30 minute break "breaks" your trip up a little, makes you a more alert driver, etc. I would be happy to take that break. But I will agree, if there is a significant uncertainty of the charge spot being available it would become a burden. I would not want to wait an undetermined amount of time "in line" to start the charging.
2011 Silver SL+QC [Mfg: 11/2010] 36mo/15k LEASE
06Jun2013 Status [28.5 months][34,173 miles][11 bars]
Lost CapacityBar 6/6/13 @34,173 miles while in LEAF Battery Monitor: 83.41%, 71.4F (avg); cool overnight;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14389
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:05 pm

i think that it will be months if not at least a year before any area is inundated with Leafs to cause a line up at the charging stations. hopefully synergy of the idea will have taken off by then and many many more will be in the works. i still fully believe that the private sector will take off with the idea when they see the level of adoption of the technology
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smidge204
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:22 pm

GroundLoop wrote:My concern with opportunistic charging is that it simply won't scale.

If 10% of Costco's shoppers come in expecting to plug in, that is a whole lot of L2 chargers needed. If there is contention (more cars than chargers), I don't have a lot of faith in my fellow Costco chargers to default to a cooperative system for fair use. I've seen how parking works, shopping carts, and any of the other abused "commons".
It seems your concern is rooted in a deeper, more generic misanthropy... but for optimism's sake let's say 10% of Costco members want EV charging. In an ideal situation, 10% of Costco's parking lot would eventually be EV charger accessible.
GroundLoop wrote:It works fine when there are two chargers at a store, and EVs are a novelty. I just don't see this persisting if you predict a future swap of all the Prius cars to EVs. The local mall has "Hybrid Parking Only" spaces (as if more Smug was needed). They're always taken. If this was the ONLY place Hybrids could park, it would fail.
Please don't confuse opportunistic charging with mandatory charging. That is, even if a charger is not available at my destination, I may not actually need it depending on how local the destination is. If the "Hybrid only" spots are taken, then petition the property owner to assign more spaces.
GroundLoop wrote:My prediction: Charging is done at your two "home base" locations, maybe work and home.

I have no intention at all of ever taking an "extra-range" trip, with a mandatory charge break. Two reasons:
1) I have no control or priority for the expected charger mid-way
2) I don't want to wait for a charge. If I'm driving 100+ miles to begin with, that's a long time in the car. Adding 30 minutes for a quick charge is just not something I'm going to embrace.
Here is my personal opinion on a near-optimal infrastructure would look like:

Primary: Just about everyone would have a L2 charger available at their place of residence (house, apartment, condo etc). This would be the primary charging location and handle the bulk of the work.

Secondary: Most (perhaps fewer than above) would also have L2 charging available where they work.

Major destinations: Places that people typically visit for more than one hour at a time would have some number of L2 and L1 charging available. Such places might include large shopping malls, movie theaters, airport and train station parking lots, hotels/motels, amusement parks and some larger restaurants. L1 is more viable given the lengths of time under some situations (eg long-term airport parking).

Minor destinations: Places where people visit typically between 20 minutes to an hour and provide mostly L2 charging. Such places might include smaller shopping centers or large, single stores (eg Costco), most restaurants, salons and boutiques, bus terminals, airport parking lots (short-term/visitor parking), hospitals and other medical centers.

Stopover locations: Places where people are expected to visit only infrequently and for less than 20-30 minutes. These locations would have L2 and L3 charging and include rest stops, roadside diners/fast food/coffee shops and small shopping centers.

And for the really impatient, there is a niche ideally filled by the coveted and nearly mythical battery swap station. Likely to be found only on the outskirts of cities and along intercity highway routes. Lots of little legal/practical issues to hammer out with this plan before widespread adoption but there's at least one company rolling out the technology for it.
=Smidge=

User avatar
Jimmydreams
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:44 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0175
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Contact: Website

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:26 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:i think that it will be months if not at least a year before any area is inundated with Leafs to cause a line up at the charging stations. hopefully synergy of the idea will have taken off by then and many many more will be in the works. i still fully believe that the private sector will take off with the idea when they see the level of adoption of the technology
My thoughts exactly.

If someone snapped their fingers and suddenly 10% of the vehicles on the road were EVs, then yes, infrastructure problems would be all over the place. But the buildup and demand for charging stations, opportunistic charging etc., will occur slowly. Sure, SOMETIMES the Costco charging station will be full....but when it becomes commonplace, then Costco (for example) will hear about it and make the appropriate changes.
JimmyD
http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar
Blue SL Leaf delivered 1/7/2011
EVP participant. EVSE: Blink
6.75kW PV solar

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14389
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: New EVSE maps website http://electric.carstations.com

Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:38 pm

what we need is legislation mandating each employer provide a growing # of charge stations. L1 is fine. but that wont happen until Nissan proves that the Leaf if here to stay. that will take at least a year of wildly happy Leaf owners spreading the word.

this will cause the money to flow to EV's. then we will see charging stations popping up everywhere. it will be used as an advertising tool.

lets face it, we are bombarded by these tools now

"Kids eat free"
"buffets noon to 3 PM mon-fri"
"buy one get 2nd ½ off"
"Free EV charging"

look at that!! it blends right in!!
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Return to “EVSE / Charging Equipment and Networks”