DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15298
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:48 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 am
How about we get back to my statement that if you want widespread adoption, you must provide widespread access and options?
My assertion was, and remains, that if you have sufficiently long range evs, widespread charging access at residences and hotels and fast charging access for long trips, the problem is solved. I don't believe you need widespread deployment of destination L2 chargers for widespread EV adoption.

We already saw this. Early on, Tesla toured Google's facilities and found nearly no Teslas plugged in at work. They assumed that Googlers weren't interested in Teslas, and inquired about it. They found out that there were lots of Teslas owned by Googlers, but they saw basically no reason to go through the work to plug them in at work. They simply found only charging at night where they lived was more convenient. The Teslas were often found parked in the parking lot with the ICE's, not in the EV parking spots.
What is your prediction on when 300 mi... no, 200+ mile Plug ins will the norm? Next year? Next decade? Or when the price drops below the cost of a mid level compact?

Either way, our conversation is making progress! Shall we make that hotel charging option # 3?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

webeleafowners
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:03 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:48 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 am
How about we get back to my statement that if you want widespread adoption, you must provide widespread access and options?
My assertion was, and remains, that if you have sufficiently long range evs, widespread charging access at residences and hotels and fast charging access for long trips, the problem is solved. I don't believe you need widespread deployment of destination L2 chargers for widespread EV adoption.

We already saw this. Early on, Tesla toured Google's facilities and found nearly no Teslas plugged in at work. They assumed that Googlers weren't interested in Teslas, and inquired about it. They found out that there were lots of Teslas owned by Googlers, but they saw basically no reason to go through the work to plug them in at work. They simply found only charging at night where they lived was more convenient. The Teslas were often found parked in the parking lot with the ICE's, not in the EV parking spots.
What is your prediction on when 300 mi... no, 200+ mile Plug ins will the norm? Next year? Next decade? Or when the price drops below the cost of a mid level compact?

Either way, our conversation is making progress! Shall we make that hotel charging option # 3?
For what it’s worth we don’t even consider a hotel if it doesn’t have overnight charging.

There’s an app for that.
2020 Model 3 Tesla. AWD with FSD. Deep metallic blue. Our daily driver.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh Culis Red. Sold. Was my daily driver. Loved that car.
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:10 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:48 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 am
How about we get back to my statement that if you want widespread adoption, you must provide widespread access and options?
My assertion was, and remains, that if you have sufficiently long range evs, widespread charging access at residences and hotels and fast charging access for long trips, the problem is solved. I don't believe you need widespread deployment of destination L2 chargers for widespread EV adoption.

We already saw this. Early on, Tesla toured Google's facilities and found nearly no Teslas plugged in at work. They assumed that Googlers weren't interested in Teslas, and inquired about it. They found out that there were lots of Teslas owned by Googlers, but they saw basically no reason to go through the work to plug them in at work. They simply found only charging at night where they lived was more convenient. The Teslas were often found parked in the parking lot with the ICE's, not in the EV parking spots.
What is your prediction on when 300 mi... no, 200+ mile Plug ins will the norm? Next year? Next decade? Or when the price drops below the cost of a mid level compact?

Either way, our conversation is making progress! Shall we make that hotel charging option # 3?
I see very little interest in EV's being made today under 200 mile range. In terms of new US sales, 200+ mile EV's already are the norm. People seem to either want 200+ mile EV's or just go ICE. Interest in short range EV's is extremely low. If you have any stats to show that statement is wrong, let me know and I'll retract the statement.

Yes, we should add hotels as #3. WetEV pointed this out, and I agreed with him in my subsequent post.

I still assert that L2 destination chargers are not useful long-term. They only matter if you have short range EV's, and the market has clearly shifted away form short range EV's. L2 chargers are useful where overnight charging is often performed (residence/hotel/etc). I fully expect to see L2 charging not just in homes but in parking and parking structures for residences--at least until EVs can L3 charge in <5-10 minutes or autonomous driving takes over.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

roger1818
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jun 2019
Leaf Number: 315029

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:29 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:19 am
I would generalize that and say any destination that people will stay at for more than an hour anyway, would do well with AC charging stations (L1/L2).
Destination charging stations are expensive. If there's not significant demand and willingness to pay for their installation, they won't justify the price. The charging stations are often in excess of $5000 per plug, plus a maintenance agreement with Chargepoint, etc. to handle support, calls, billing, etc.
As demand for destination chargers grows and there are more options for quality destination chargers (It was telling that you said "Chargepoint, etc," as if you couldn't think of any others), the price will likely come down. Even if it doesn't, the cost of the charger when amortized over its lifespan, is small. For reference, according to this article, Chargepoint has a leasing program where, "business owners can pay as little as $3 to $6 per day to lease a charging station." In many cases, adding one customer per day as a result of having the charging station will pay for the station.
I don't see why it makes any sense to build out this infrastructure in most cases. In general, people will just charge at where they live (home, apartment, etc) and use L3 for long distance travel. I do see certain use cases, such as hotels, where L2 charging is likely to be common, but I'm not sure the cost will be justified for the other use cases, especially long-term parking lots such as at an airport, where the utilization of the charger will be extremely low (car charges initially, then sits for a week wasting the charger).
You are assuming that people can charge where they live. It easy for people of means to pay to have a charging station installed at their home, but for those who can't afford it, what are their options? Landlords aren't going to want to shell out over $5000 per parking spot (or pay to lease a charging station) without passing that cost onto their tenants. That could be a big issue for people who are struggling to make ends meet.

There is also an issue for those who don't have a parking spot at home, but instead have to park on the street. They would need the city to install curbside charging stations for them.

These issues aren't insurmountable, but it will take consented effort to resolve them and it will likely take several decades to do so. Maybe one day when that happens, you are correct and we won't need so many destination chargers, but we are a long, long way from that.
Self-driving will also impact this. A few spots will likely have automated charging ports that the cars will utilize, then go sit in a standard parking spot with no charging capability. I expect these charging spots will be level 3 chargers to reduce the number of charger installations required.
That could be a long term solution, but you would need to find a way to automate the connection of the DC Fast charger to the vehicle. Forget about using inductive charging for this as the magnetic field needed to transfer hundreds of kilowatts of power would be massive and would fry all of the electronics inside the car. Even if you resolved that issue, the cost of the electricity wasted due to the inefficiencies of inductive charging would pay the salary of a valet.

Autonomous rapid charging may happen one day, but I wouldn't count on it happening anytime soon.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

roger1818
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jun 2019
Leaf Number: 315029

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am
My assertion was, and remains, that if you have sufficiently long range evs, widespread charging access at residences and hotels and fast charging access for long trips, the problem is solved. I don't believe you need widespread deployment of destination L2 chargers for widespread EV adoption.
If and when we get to the point where all BEVs have a long range, everyone has a charging station at home and every hotel has enough charging stations for all of their patrons who need them, then maybe you will be correct (though I do expect there to be some exceptions). My point is we are several decades from that happening, so there will be need for alternate charging options for those who need it.
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am
We already saw this. Early on, Tesla toured Google's facilities and found nearly no Teslas plugged in at work. They assumed that Googlers weren't interested in Teslas, and inquired about it. They found out that there were lots of Teslas owned by Googlers, but they saw basically no reason to go through the work to plug them in at work. They simply found only charging at night where they lived was more convenient. The Teslas were often found parked in the parking lot with the ICE's, not in the EV parking spots.
Google employees might be typical Tesla owners, but they aren't typical vehicle owners. If you can afford to buy a Tesla, you can afford to install a charging station in your home. Rather than look at how people who do buy BEVs use them, we need to look at why people don't buy BEVs. Doing otherwise is kind of like choosing where to build a bridge based on where people cross the river rather than where they want to cross the river.
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:10 am
I see very little interest in EV's being made today under 200 mile range. In terms of new US sales, 200+ mile EV's already are the norm. People seem to either want 200+ mile EV's or just go ICE. Interest in short range EV's is extremely low. If you have any stats to show that statement is wrong, let me know and I'll retract the statement.
Most EVs today are either luxury vehicles or are filled with expensive options to justify their high price tag. If we want widespread EV adoption, the price needs to come way down, and one way to do that is with smaller batteries. As a result, the trend of all new BEVs having larger and larger batteries may reverse as demand for them increases.
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:10 am
I still assert that L2 destination chargers are not useful long-term. They only matter if you have short range EV's, and the market has clearly shifted away form short range EV's. L2 chargers are useful where overnight charging is often performed (residence/hotel/etc). I fully expect to see L2 charging not just in homes but in parking and parking structures for residences--at least until EVs can L3 charge in <5-10 minutes or autonomous driving takes over.
It really depends on your definition of long term. If it is over 50 years from now, then you might be right, but my crystal ball is kind of fuzzy when looking that far in the future.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:34 pm

roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
That could be a long term solution, but you would need to find a way to automate the connection of the DC Fast charger to the vehicle.
Yeah, I was thinking something like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... eepy-video
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
You are assuming that people can charge where they live. It easy for people of means to pay to have a charging station installed at their home, but for those who can't afford it, what are their options? Landlords aren't going to want to shell out over $5000 per parking spot (or pay to lease a charging station) without passing that cost onto their tenants. That could be a big issue for people who are struggling to make ends meet.
Agreed. I expect poor people will continue to drive old ICE vehicles until Landlords catch up. It's yet another way it's expensive to be poor. Being poor sucks.

roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am
Google employees might be typical Tesla owners, but they aren't typical vehicle owners. If you can afford to buy a Tesla, you can afford to install a charging station in your home. Rather than look at how people who do buy BEVs use them, we need to look at why people don't buy BEVs. Doing otherwise is kind of like choosing where to build a bridge based on where people cross the river rather than where they want to cross the river.
Good point. My perception may be skewed.
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am
Most EVs today are either luxury vehicles or are filled with expensive options to justify their high price tag. If we want widespread EV adoption, the price needs to come way down, and one way to do that is with smaller batteries. As a result, the trend of all new BEVs having larger and larger batteries may reverse as demand for them increases.
Unless we have strict laws or taxes to cause this, I don't see it happening. Battery prices continue to drop and people have shown they'd rather just go buy an ICE instead of dealing with the range issues of a short-range EV.
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am
It really depends on your definition of long term. If it is over 50 years from now, then you might be right, but my crystal ball is kind of fuzzy when looking that far in the future.
50 years from now, we won't be driving. We'll likely be passengers in a large autonomous taxi fleet. I'm thinking a 10-15 year timeframe for when L2 utilization begins to drop and stop being used. If autonomous cars catch on faster than I expect, this whole discussion may be moot--everyone will travel with large taxi fleets charged via L3 chargers to maximize utilization of the cars and the chargers (or some tech we don't even imagine yet). Maybe flying cars will actually be a common thing by then.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

roger1818
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jun 2019
Leaf Number: 315029

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:50 pm

Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:34 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
That could be a long term solution, but you would need to find a way to automate the connection of the DC Fast charger to the vehicle.
Yeah, I was thinking something like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... eepy-video
Tesla can do something like that because they have a limited number of models of cars to work with. It also helps that they have an automatic charging door. To make it work with every make and model of car would be way more difficult (I won't say impossible, but close to it). I've done work with automating the matting of electrical connectors and what is easy for a person, is much more difficult to automate.
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:34 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
You are assuming that people can charge where they live. It easy for people of means to pay to have a charging station installed at their home, but for those who can't afford it, what are their options? Landlords aren't going to want to shell out over $5000 per parking spot (or pay to lease a charging station) without passing that cost onto their tenants. That could be a big issue for people who are struggling to make ends meet.
Agreed. I expect poor people will continue to drive old ICE vehicles until Landlords catch up. It's yet another way it's expensive to be poor. Being poor sucks.
It isn't just poor people. I was discussing this with someone on another forum and she wanted to buy a BEV, but her landlord refused to install even an electrical outlet for L1 charging, so she bought a Prius instead. She said that even if some of the places she regularly visited had L2 charging, it would have helped a lot. Having to make a special trip to a DC Fast Charger once a week, and then wait while it charges doesn't make sense. The key is to make it convenient. What works for you may not work for someone else and vise versa.
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:34 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am
Most EVs today are either luxury vehicles or are filled with expensive options to justify their high price tag. If we want widespread EV adoption, the price needs to come way down, and one way to do that is with smaller batteries. As a result, the trend of all new BEVs having larger and larger batteries may reverse as demand for them increases.
Unless we have strict laws or taxes to cause this, I don't see it happening. Battery prices continue to drop and people have shown they'd rather just go buy an ICE instead of dealing with the range issues of a short-range EV.
If you never go on road trips, and you can recharge at any destination, why would you need a car with a range of 200+ miles? Once we achieve price parity, the type of person buying them will change significantly.
Lothsahn wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:34 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:56 am
It really depends on your definition of long term. If it is over 50 years from now, then you might be right, but my crystal ball is kind of fuzzy when looking that far in the future.
50 years from now, we won't be driving. We'll likely be passengers in a large autonomous taxi fleet. I'm thinking a 10-15 year timeframe for when L2 utilization begins to drop and stop being used. If autonomous cars catch on faster than I expect, this whole discussion may be moot--everyone will travel with large taxi fleets charged via L3 chargers to maximize utilization of the cars and the chargers (or some tech we don't even imagine yet). Maybe flying cars will actually be a common thing by then.
As I said, my crystal ball is kind of fuzzy, but I am skeptical that autonomous vehicles will be as widely accepted as some people hope. I don't know what will happen in a 10-15 year timeframe, but even if they do decline over that period, that is plenty of time to amortize the cost of a destination charging station.
2019 Leaf SV
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16103
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:24 pm

I was discussing this with someone on another forum and she wanted to buy a BEV, but her landlord refused to install even an electrical outlet for L1 charging, so she bought a Prius instead. She said that even if some of the places she regularly visited had L2 charging, it would have helped a lot. Having to make a special trip to a DC Fast charger once a week, and then wait while it charges doesn't make sense. The key is to make it convenient.

The best car for that situation would be a Prius Prime. It gets superior fuel economy even if not charged, but can take advantage of opportunity charging to get even better MPG.

Although I'm down on Priuses at the moment. It seems that Toyota has been covering up serious issues with them, like failing head gaskets on Gen II cars, and failing inverters on the PIP. If we can get our PIP sorted out, it's going up for sale. Those getting a Prime should probably lease it, and turn it in or sell it after the lease ends.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15298
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:48 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:24 pm
I was discussing this with someone on another forum and she wanted to buy a BEV, but her landlord refused to install even an electrical outlet for L1 charging, so she bought a Prius instead. She said that even if some of the places she regularly visited had L2 charging, it would have helped a lot. Having to make a special trip to a DC Fast charger once a week, and then wait while it charges doesn't make sense. The key is to make it convenient.

The best car for that situation would be a Prius Prime. It gets superior fuel economy even if not charged, but can take advantage of opportunity charging to get even better MPG.

Although I'm down on Priuses at the moment. It seems that Toyota has been covering up serious issues with them, like failing head gaskets on Gen II cars, and failing inverters on the PIP. If we can get our PIP sorted out, it's going up for sale. Those getting a Prime should probably lease it, and turn it in or sell it after the lease ends.
Toyota is dead to me. Their policies I am no longer able to support and this is coming from a Prius fan X 3.

BUT the comment really illustrates why many more public charging options are needed. The "special trip" to charge is utter BS. But having lowly L2 charging available everywhere means no special trips. I have free level 2 charging in my town but I do not now (nor will I ever) simply go there to plug in. I use them if I happen to be there but that is all so no "special charging trips" for me.

Now I do do QCs specifically for charging but its rather easy to justify a 20-30 min session with other needs or wants.

Way up the thread I asked when 200 mile EVs would be the norm and gave away the answer. Range is not the paradigm shift we are looking for. Mainstream EVs will happen when they match the price of a mid level compact gasser. This likely means 150ish mile range at least initially. This means local charging needs will continue to explode for years. Just as gas stations are not located exclusively on the freeways, charging stations cannot be either.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

johnlocke
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:21 am

roger1818 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am
Lothsahn wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:29 pm
roger1818 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:19 am
I would generalize that and say any destination that people will stay at for more than an hour anyway, would do well with AC charging stations (L1/L2).
Destination charging stations are expensive. If there's not significant demand and willingness to pay for their installation, they won't justify the price. The charging stations are often in excess of $5000 per plug, plus a maintenance agreement with Chargepoint, etc. to handle support, calls, billing, etc.
As demand for destination chargers grows and there are more options for quality destination chargers (It was telling that you said "Chargepoint, etc," as if you couldn't think of any others), the price will likely come down. Even if it doesn't, the cost of the charger when amortized over its lifespan, is small. For reference, according to this article, Chargepoint has a leasing program where, "business owners can pay as little as $3 to $6 per day to lease a charging station." In many cases, adding one customer per day as a result of having the charging station will pay for the station.
I don't see why it makes any sense to build out this infrastructure in most cases. In general, people will just charge at where they live (home, apartment, etc) and use L3 for long distance travel. I do see certain use cases, such as hotels, where L2 charging is likely to be common, but I'm not sure the cost will be justified for the other use cases, especially long-term parking lots such as at an airport, where the utilization of the charger will be extremely low (car charges initially, then sits for a week wasting the charger).
You are assuming that people can charge where they live. It easy for people of means to pay to have a charging station installed at their home, but for those who can't afford it, what are their options? Landlords aren't going to want to shell out over $5000 per parking spot (or pay to lease a charging station) without passing that cost onto their tenants. That could be a big issue for people who are struggling to make ends meet.

There is also an issue for those who don't have a parking spot at home, but instead have to park on the street. They would need the city to install curbside charging stations for them.

These issues aren't insurmountable, but it will take consented effort to resolve them and it will likely take several decades to do so. Maybe one day when that happens, you are correct and we won't need so many destination chargers, but we are a long, long way from that.
Self-driving will also impact this. A few spots will likely have automated charging ports that the cars will utilize, then go sit in a standard parking spot with no charging capability. I expect these charging spots will be level 3 chargers to reduce the number of charger installations required.
That could be a long term solution, but you would need to find a way to automate the connection of the DC Fast charger to the vehicle. Forget about using inductive charging for this as the magnetic field needed to transfer hundreds of kilowatts of power would be massive and would fry all of the electronics inside the car. Even if you resolved that issue, the cost of the electricity wasted due to the inefficiencies of inductive charging would pay the salary of a valet.

Autonomous rapid charging may happen one day, but I wouldn't count on it happening anytime soon.
As a former landlord, I can tell you that as soon as the charging companies give a cut of the action to the landlord, you'll see charging stations stations in the parking lots. It's like a coin op laundry in the building. The charging company pays for the installation and provides the chargers. They pay the landlord for the electricity and a cut of the profits. The landlord gets a perk for the tenants and makes some money.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

Return to “EVSE / Charging Equipment and Networks”