cwerdna
Posts: 11012
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:28 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: but I have also run into Tesla owners in the wild over a dozen times and only two showed any knowledge beyond the "its got 4 wheels" mentality. Maybe its doctors (ya lets perpetuate another stereotype!!) since most of these were in or around medical facilities but the only Tesla owner I have encountered so far that knew more than the basics of EVs was a 7-Eleven Franchisee.
Not that I had a street encounter w/this person, but I was amused by these comments about a CHAdeMO DC FC at http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/6466" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; supposedly by a Model S guy(s).
2 days ago
The CBAdeMO cbarger was just repaired today, and I tried charging my Tesla Model S, but the charger did not work for my car
2 days ago
CHAdeMO charger is free, but did not charge Tesla Model S
DUH! Of course, it's not going to work, unless he's got a pre-production/beta version of http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections ... mo-adapter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

KeiJidosha
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2011
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:06 pm

I stopped at Ventura Harbor today for Lunch and to walk the pooch. I was showing 30 miles remaining for the 30 mile trip home. Wanting to use the AC, I decided to charge at one of the two cranky Blink chargers to have some cushion, and update PlugShare on their status. The last report was that one did not work.

Preparing to leave prior to my 1 hour minimum, a brand new Smart ED pulled in. The driver waved, and clearly wanted to chat. Turns out this brand new EV driver had just purchased the car yesterday. A friend told her there was a charger here at the beach. So she and her friend, and her dog and beach gear piled to the roof headed to the Harbor knowing nothing about range, public charging, or smartphone apps. Oh, and the car was “Low on power", and the gage showed in the red (<20% SOC), now 40 miles from “home”.

At the mention of Blink, PlugShare, Level 2, and State of Charge, her eyes glazed over.

I showed her how the Blink charger works, and had her connect the car and start the charge session using my Blink card. Checking the dash, the car was charging. She took a picture of my Blink card with the phone and website, intending to sign up. By then, her friend had unpacked their gear and was ready to hit the beach. I waved, fully aware I would be paying $2/hr until they finally unplugged to leave (it has now been 4 hours).

New drivers don’t even know what they don’t know. I read the not infrequent ignorant rants on PlugShare from new drivers discovering they cannot charge for various reasons. We send first time EV drivers into this new world equipped to fail, but expecting success. How do we help these people have a good experience?

Seems to me it should be possible to connect needy drivers to the EV brain trust that lives on this and other forums by phone or through an app, webpage, IM, or social Media. Plug-In-America needs to become the AAA of EVs. They should have a business card with that contact info that should be given to every new EV driver along with a free 1 year membership for signing up. And it should trigger a membership and free, first time charge from opportunity charging providers servicing their local area.
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace HSE

kikngas
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:19 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 310377
Location: SE Minnesota

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:36 pm

I don't even HAVE the LEAF yet, and am amazed at some of the reactions I get when I talk about it.

Does it look... umm... you know, weird?
Aren't electric cars like REALLY expensive?
Right, so you can go over 80 miles, but you can only go like 40MPH right?
Sure, but where are you going to plug in it? ...well there ARE a few outlets around.
But you need so much power you'll blow all the fuses! ...or I'll need to be sure there is a charge controller doing the thinking.

...and I figure I'll save $50 a month on gas ...sure but your electric bill is going to go up too. So that's just gonna cancel out. Right, but I already accounted for the $15 increase in electric when I quoted the $50 in net savings. But that's me, I don't drive as much as the national average. How much do you spend on gas in a month? ...well, I don't know.

So how do I try and explain that the car saves you money to someone that apparently doesn't care how much their car costs? ...unless it costs "more" than ICE. THAT they care about.

How do I explain that 80 miles is plenty, when they have no idea how many miles they drive?

I think perhaps it's better NOT to try and explain. The answers quickly get more complicated then they are interested in, and for the rest of their life electric cars will be "complicated".

I'm thinking maybe I need to keep it simple, more like this:

But you can't go as far in winter right? Right, just like an ICE car. I can still only go twice as far as I need to.
But how do you know what sort of plug to use? It's about like deciding which gas pump to use.
But what if your battery catches fire? Well, then I'll do the same thing you would if your fuel line catches fire... RUN.
But how do you know you will save on maintenance when BEVs are such new and unproven tech? Well, they've been using heavy duty electric motors in factories for many decades. But I also know that the last 5 things I paid to fix on my ICE do not even exist on the LEAF.
But you'll have to replace the batteries! Right, and it's still cheaper.http://cleantechnica.com/2013/04/07/nis ... mparisons/
But the batteries are toxic waste. Actually they plan to repackage them into grid storage for wind farms, and then will recycle them after that.
But the batteries are really heavy, so it can't be very efficient. Actually, the lithium batteries have 5 times the power density of the batteries you are thinking of. And I don't have to lug around 100 pounds of gas, and tank everywhere I go.
Sure you have no exhaust pipe, but you're just pushing the pollution to the dirty coal power plant. OK, I've read government studies that show BEV is still less CO2 and that coal isn't as dirty as it used to be... but I'm not gonna go there. My car charges (will charge) at night, and you know all those windmills over in the neighboring towns? Well there's lots of wind at night. And more and more wind and solar all the time on the grid. So, let me just claim that my car will get cleaner and cleaner over the next decade during it's life, and an ICE car will not.
But you are going to put stress on the power grid and it will crash. See above, wind power. I'm using nighttime grid, the grid we worry about crashing is daytime.
But you can't go as far when you go fast. Right, just as with your ICE.
So why don't you just spend $5,000 less and drive a hybred? Because even with all of the added complexity of having both an engine and fuel system and a battery and electrical system, it still doesn't get noticeably better mileage then my 1994 Honda Del Sol.
So it gets over 100 MPGe, but there's no gas, so how do they even KNOW that? Well, umhem :roll: , they look at the energy available in the fuel, and the energy that actually drives the wheels and figure it out. And they figured out that 80% of the energy in your gallon of gas goes in to heat rather than driving the wheels. Did you ever notice how HOT your ICE car gets? (and I'm curious to see how hot my LEAF's "engine" compartment will get, can I suggest they put their hand there to see it is not so dangerously hot?)
Sure my ICE is only 20% efficient, but your power plant has line losses before the power even GETS to your car. (OK, how far to take this one?), The line losses are typically about 7%, which is actually about the same as the fuel used to bring your crude oil from halfway across the globe to a refinery where they burn fuel to boil it all and make gasoline, and jet fuel and etc. How much energy do you think it would take to boil a barrel of oil? They use so much energy in the refining process that you could instead put that in to run my inefficient power plant, cross the inefficient grid, charge my car, and I'll still have enough to go 10 miles just on the energy used to refine a gallon of gas. So in any comparison with gas, you have to keep in mind that I always start 10MPG ahead of you. Oh, and some electricity comes from hydroelectric, solar, wind, and nuclear (well at least we can say nuclear doesn't produce large amounts of CO2). These (ok nuclear is a mess, but the other 3) don't require fuel to bring across the globe, they don't require fuel to refine, they don't require fuel to pump in and out of tanks, they don't require fuel to bring to the gas station. Does that sound more efficient?

What do you think, are these answers inline with what the person asking is ready to grasp? They KNOW oil is dirty, they KNOW a semi truck burns diesel to bring their gas to the station, they KNOW their car gets VERY hot, they can SEE all of the moving parts in their ICE, they've PAID for repairs to things that don't exist in a BEV. But a LOT of what they KNOW is 30 years old, or simply miscomparisons of numbers. For example, they confuse electric line losses with overall efficiency of producing electricity. They know coal is dirty. They don't see a comparison of electric to gas as fair, because you haven't accounted for where the electricity comes from, yet they fail to try and apply the same logic to their gas.

So, I'm thinking the more I can turn the question around and ask them about their ICE, the more they might start to realize they are picking nits or believing hype. What do you think?

SwedeLeaf
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:31 am
Delivery Date: 19 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 8900

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:18 am

kikngas wrote:...
But how do you know you will save on maintenance when BEVs are such new and unproven tech? Well, they've been using heavy duty electric motors in factories for many decades. But I also know that the last 5 things I paid to fix on my ICE do not even exist on the LEAF.
...
I like that one a lot!

kikngas
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:19 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 310377
Location: SE Minnesota

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:01 pm

kikngas wrote:Did you ever notice how HOT your ICE car gets? (and I'm curious to see how hot my LEAF's "engine" compartment will get, can I suggest they put their hand there to see it is not so dangerously hot?)
(If I quote myself, will I go blind?)

Well, I can now confirm that I've completed 60+ miles of straight driving, opened the hood immediately and was unable to find anything under there that was even warm! I opened by hood last night to see what I could learn about the HVAC air intake, and there's snow in there! THAT's how little heat is coming off as waste.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:40 pm

Right, so you can go over 80 miles, but you can only go like 40MPH right
To get over 80 miles? That's pretty accurate for the Leaf. Maybe 45MPH.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

mkjayakumar
Posts: 1219
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:13 am
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Location: Plano, TX

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:16 am

I haven't read all the replies in this topic, but this statement from the first base note from the OP caught my attention:
he was leasing an '11 SL before and now was leasing a '13 or '14 S
Now that is a big victory for EVs. This poorly informed gentleman, inspite of loosing quite a bit of capacity still went back and got another EV. So plugshare, MyNissanLeaf.com, Leaf advisory board and other supporting entities can vanish tomorrow and still EVs will get mainstream without a hiccup. Just make an affordable damn solid 150 mile EV.
2011 Leaf, 30K miles, returned after 24 month lease.
Currently leasing 2014 Leaf SV.

CWO4Mann
Gold Member
Posts: 461
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Leaf Number: 1567
Location: Brentwood, TN
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Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:29 am

cwerdna wrote:Anyone have any new significant stories? It's been 4 months since the thread went off on a tangent about voltages... :mrgreen:

Well, ok, my daddy, an old fashioned Tennessee farmer, used to say "yessir, we done got the TVA now!" Which was a lot better than the Winpower windmill what put out thst 48 volts DC for the farm. After he and momma were Called Home to The Lord's Loving Arms ( as we say), I kept the 48 volt tools and later sold them on eBay. Ever seen a 48vdc Sears Craftsman circular saw? Yep. When we needed "big power", he and my older brother would hook up the PTO on the John Deere to a generator. Yee ha, how far we done come from those good old days. The old farm is now underneath a Nissan Dealership and shopping mall. He was a great reader and experimenter and told me many time how he wished "...that danged Edison character hadn't of had that Professor Tesla bankrupted ... ". I could go on about his litany on steam cars and the 1,000 mpg carburetor, but dont want to get too far off-topic :D
Ira est potens et pertinax.
Study History - Know the Future
CWO4 US Army (Ret.)
N4CVX; ex-VP2EHF; ex-DA1BB; ex-KR6DEM
2012 SL Glacier Pearl VIN: 1567 Delivered 12-11-2011
Cool Springs Nissan, Franklin, TN

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledg

Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:34 am

KillaWhat wrote:...
Most of us "early adopters" were really into it.
Engineers or same brain type.
...
Even among engineers there is a large variation in knowledge of the vehicle.

Chattanooga Engineers Club has at least four members that drive a LEAF.

In late 2012 when knowledge of rapid capacity degradation of the defective batteries was being extensively discussed on MNL I asked one of the other LEAF owners if he had lost any capacity bars.
He did not know what a capacity bar was and knew nothing about rapid capacity degradation issue.

Even among the early adopters that in general are more into the technology, there is a large variation in the depth to which they dig into the technology details.

It is hard to judge how many people with a LEAF use MNL much.
My guess is maybe 1000 out of say 50,000 people with a LEAF.
So in general a very large % of people with a LEAF do not know very much about it.
Some just not interested. Some too busy. Some never discovered MNL.

So it isn't very surprising to come across people driving a LEAF that know very little about it.
For them it is just a car.
Not a passion like it is for many on MNL :?

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

User avatar
Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 577
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Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: encounters w/other Leafers w/surprising lack of knowledge

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:48 am

This post is definitely worth reviving - very entertaining, but then I must be one of those "geek" engineers (chemical and thankfully retired).

I just purchased a 25,000 mile, 9 bar, 2012 Leaf that is like new condition, thanks to a careful owner/leasee. This purchase was after quite a bit of what I thought was careful study. However,
1. Missed that the L1/L2 "charger" is only 3.3KW sizing - SLOW! (I am putting an OpenEsve together as we post, which will hopefully allow me to at least max the charger out - any experience on this is appreciated).
2. Missed that there are no "free" chargers anymore - even the stores that have "free" signs have NO ONE IN THE STORE that knows what the hell your talking about.
3. Missed that the "quick chargers" are very few and far between and seem to have maintenance issues (I've had to really get on their case to get the local one fixed)
4. Missed that the expected range is very optimistic when fully charged - Is it equally pessimistic before turtle mode? I will get the Leaf Spy set up with my iphone (bluetooth?)
5. Hopefully will not miss that I can get a replacement battery sometime next summer - what a deal it then becomes!, but only time will tell.

I drive a Suburban daily because I haul, heavy, industrial electronics (big UPSs), but would rather drive this Leaf any day (If I can get there)! It is so much fun to drive - I now know why the front tires are (not very old) worn out compared to the back. Lots of "WHOAs" from the passenger side.

I'm in Texas (Houston area), so I'd not expect to see many EV's around, but I've run into several and talked to two;
One was very happy and uses it consistently to commute every day - was at a L2 charger and upset that the DC charger did not work.
One was a young lady that simply said - "it doesn't go very far". Knew nothing else about the car (appeared it might have been borrowed?)

I am very hopeful, but not yet convinced, that I can use this Leaf for both transportation and off-grid energy storage (with my solar system) - it is an amazing well engineered electrical system. From what I've seen posted on Tesla battery tear-downs, (IMO only - don't want a range war!), it is far superior in design (OK except for heat removal). Extremely robust with tons of features - could be part of the range problem.

Impressions after a few weeks of ownership!
2012 Leaf SL; 46,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

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