lorenfb
Posts: 2467
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:03 am

WetEV wrote:The fact that simply driving more seems to improve lifetime suggests to me that a firmware change could make a large difference in battery life. Not if the OEM can prove that Nissan's other electronics is shortening the life of the batteries.
What specifically in a BMS's electronics, e.g. bleed-off voltage set point, or in its microcontroller's firmware could be contributing to increased
battery degradation? Surely, most OEM battery suppliers would be involved with each end-users BMS development team to define parameters
to avoid problematic issues, e.g. battery degradation. If not, the supplier potentially becomes involved in future liability issues and puts future
battery sales at risk.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
JPWhite
Gold Member
Posts: 1784
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:41 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 5734
Location: Hendersonville TN
Contact: Website Yahoo Messenger AOL

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:26 pm

WetEV wrote:
JPWhite wrote:I've lost hope that Nissan are even trying to resolve the issue anymore. Let's face it, poor battery degradation has been present since the first car came off the production line in 2010.
The lizard battery(late 2013 to 2016 24kWh) is pretty good. If the 30kWh battery was similar, few would be complaining.
JPWhite wrote:If the fix was simply electronics/firmware they would have taken care of the issue a long time ago.
The problem with the 30kWh battery is different than the problems with early 24kWh batteries. Batteries, regeneration, charging and balancing are all fairly complex. The fact that simply driving more seems to improve lifetime suggests to me that a firmware change could make a large difference in battery life.

JPWhite wrote:The advantage for Nissan with going 3rd party is that they will recover any warranty costs from the OEM rather than have to continually eat the costs themselves. By selling the battery factories Nissan may have achieved that financial goal already.
Not if the OEM can prove that Nissan's other electronics is shortening the life of the batteries.
I have a replacement 2016 24kWh battery. 16 months later and 17,000 miles I'm down to 60Ah from 66Ah. I'd hardly say that's good. Tesla's can go 200,000 miles and lose less ona percentage basis, now *thats* good.

One option Nissan have with a third party battery pack is to do like GM did with the Bolt and have the battery supplier do the entire EV drivetrain. Then it's all on the third party. If you are correct about the firmware being the root cause of the 30kWh battery issues, why would Nissan continue to write firmware when they could outsource to someone who does so for a living?
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
2011 Blue SL-e, 132,400 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)
2018 Model 3 20,000 Miles.

cwerdna
Posts: 11177
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:35 pm

JPWhite wrote: Tesla's can go 200,000 miles and lose less ona percentage basis, now *thats* good.
Teslas do seem to do a lot better than Leaf batteries (esp. pre-lizard and what so far looks like the the disaster that is the 30 kWh pack) on both a time and mileage basis, but for 200K miles, that's assuming your pack doesn't get replaced for other reasons. I don't know of many Teslas at 200K+ miles on their original pack. Numerous old/high mileage Teslass have had their pack replaced for whatever reason, including failure of something inside the pack.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

eatsleafsandshoots
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:23 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Oct 2013
Location: Denver, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:14 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:That's good. IMO, people should buy a 30kwh Leaf only if they have modest (less than 80 mile) range needs. That's pretty ironic when you think about it...
The "No Worries Range" for any EV is about half of the EPA range. Somewhat more in milder climates, somewhat less in harsh climates.

Half of 107 miles is 53 miles. Well less than 80 miles.

Weather happens. Detours happen. Batteries degrade, even the best.

No irony intended.
Well, except my Volt. Battery hasn't degraded. Nor have I seen any Bolt degradation reports.

iPlug
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:58 pm

iPlug wrote:Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.
Leaf just back from the dealer today, 30kWh battery replaced:

AHr= 82.34
SOH= 103.60%
Hx= 97.45%
Odo= 18,729 mi
QC= 31
L1/L2= 660

3-year lease is up in about 13 months, April 2019.

Not sure we will go with a Leaf again. If we do, we don't need the range of a 2019 model 60kWh battery as the current Leaf is one of a two car family. But were we to buy, that liquid cooled battery would be a must. If we lease again, the range of the 40kWh model and the plentiful CHAdeMo in California/West Coast would be fine. If Nissan wants to replace a battery again mid-lease, that's their loss. :D
'19 Model 3 SR+, '19 Leaf SV, '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr prod.), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source HP, 3.70 UEF HPWH, Induction Cooktop, Variable Speed Pool Pump, Battery powered yard tools

lorenfb
Posts: 2467
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:53 pm

iPlug wrote:
iPlug wrote:Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.
Leaf just back from the dealer today, 30kWh battery replaced:

AHr= 82.34
SOH= 103.60%
Hx= 97.45%
Odo= 18,729 mi
QC= 31
L1/L2= 660

3-year lease is up in about 13 months, April 2019.

Not sure we will go with a Leaf again. If we do, we don't need the range of a 2019 model 60kWh battery as the current Leaf is one of a two car family. But were we to buy, that liquid cooled battery would be a must. If we lease again, the range of the 40kWh model and the plentiful CHAdeMo in California/West Coast would be fine. If Nissan wants to replace a battery again mid-lease, that's their loss. :D
Congrats! What is warranty on your replacement battery? Did the dealer provide you with an invoice, i.e. obviously no charge,
for your records which should state the replacement battery's warranty?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

iPlug
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:20 pm

lorenfb wrote:Congrats! What is warranty on your replacement battery? Did the dealer provide you with an invoice, i.e. obviously no charge,
for your records which should state the replacement battery's warranty?
No specific warranty language printed on the invoice. The back of the invoice has boilerplate pre-printed stuff: genuine nissan replacement parts language (12 months or 12k miles), but the original warranty period would still be in effect (long after our lease expires in 13 months). States parts and labor both 0.00.
'19 Model 3 SR+, '19 Leaf SV, '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr prod.), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source HP, 3.70 UEF HPWH, Induction Cooktop, Variable Speed Pool Pump, Battery powered yard tools

lorenfb
Posts: 2467
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:30 pm

iPlug wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Congrats! What is warranty on your replacement battery? Did the dealer provide you with an invoice, i.e. obviously no charge,
for your records which should state the replacement battery's warranty?
No specific warranty language printed on the invoice. The back of the invoice has boilerplate pre-printed stuff: genuine nissan replacement parts language (12 months or 12k miles), but the original warranty period would still be in effect (long after our lease expires in 13 months). States parts and labor both 0.00.
As would be expected, you're still covered by the original new car warranty on the battery. Once that expires, the replacement battery
warranty assumes a general part replacement warranty.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

iPlug
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:38 pm

The 30kWh battery warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles (from the original warranty information booklet):


LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium- ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, for vehicles equipped with the 24 kWh battery or 96 months or 100,000 miles for vehicles equipped with the 30 kWh battery, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the lithium-ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original lithium- ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If nec- essary, the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” con- dition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.



So 30kWh Leaf owners in warm climates may be getting their battery replaced 3-4 times, gratis!
'19 Model 3 SR+, '19 Leaf SV, '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr prod.), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source HP, 3.70 UEF HPWH, Induction Cooktop, Variable Speed Pool Pump, Battery powered yard tools

inphoenix
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:54 am
Delivery Date: 30 Sep 2015
Location: Phoenix! AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:37 pm

Lost my second bar today at about 14,000 miles (11 months). Grrrrrrrrr

First bar loss was at 9,600 miles (9 months).
2014 S/QC - dropped the first bar at 28K miles, second at 32.5K miles, Lease ended in April '17.
2015 Tesla MS
2017 S/QC - Lost two bars already (at 9,6K miles and 14K miles). Going back in April '19.
JuiceBox Pro 40A EVSE

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