Lothsahn
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:42 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:39 pm
It would be covered under the EV drivetrain warranty, I guess. That expired after 5 years....?
Does not appear so:
EV System Coverage applies to components listed below under the heading EV System, supplied by Nissan, subject to the exclusions listed under the heading WHAT IS NOT COVERED

EV SYSTEM:
Motor, Inverter unit, VCM, Reduction gear, DC/DC converter, Onboard charger, Onboard charger connector, and Trickle charge cable.



BCM is not listed, and as such, I would argue it's not part of the "EV SYSTEM" as defined in the warranty.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:33 pm

If they really did manage to exclude the BMS from anything beyond the 3 year BTB warranty, then it's a good thing they don't fail often...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 pm

I would argue the LBC (lithium battery controller is Nissan's name for the battery management system or BMS) is contained within the battery case and is therefore part of the battery. The only exclusions in the warranty guide are gradual capacity loss and damage caused by accident, flooding, and exposure to extreme temperatures. Opening of the battery case by other than Nissan Certified LEAF Technician voids the warranty which also implies everything inside is part of the battery.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:51 am

It's certainly one for the lawyers. The BMS/LBC isn't named in the warranty, and is inside the pack housing, but the terms "controller" and "battery management system" are not synonymous with "battery." I can't help but think of a similar game that manufacturers play with IC engine warranties: they will specify "all oil-lubricated parts" of the engine's interior as being covered by long-term warranties, thus excluding the water pump and all of the electronic parts, along with virtually all of the fuel system...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:11 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:12 pm

Don't open the battery yourself. That will void the warranty.

I just checked my 2011 Leaf (with a 2015 pack and 2015 BMS). At 72% SOC, I'm showing the average voltage to be 4.021V, minimum 4.017 and maximum 4.026 (9mv min/max). I do not believe your cells are overcharged.

It's crazy that they won't cover this under warranty. This is clearly a failure of the lithium ion battery. Do you have to call the EV help line for coverage info? Can you just work through the dealership? Is the dealership referring you to the EV help line for something?
I will not be working on the battery while it is still under warranty, which is through 9/2021 if I remember the delivery date to first owner correctly.

Thanks for the voltage check. These cell must have a very flat initial discharge curve, which might explain how cell #44 can look normal at higher SOC.

Yes, it is crazy. Or there is something perturbing their willingness to back their own warranty.
GerryAZ wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 pm
I would argue the LBC (lithium battery controller is Nissan's name for the battery management system or BMS) is contained within the battery case and is therefore part of the battery. The only exclusions in the warranty guide are gradual capacity loss and damage caused by accident, flooding, and exposure to extreme temperatures. Opening of the battery case by other than Nissan Certified LEAF Technician voids the warranty which also implies everything inside is part of the battery.
And there is the warranty explained in their own language--opening the battery case voids the warranty, so what is inside is what is warrantied. They would have had to include language like "except to replace a non-warrantied item from this list...". Thanks for pointing this out.
Last edited by MikeinPA on Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:21 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:12 pm

I would get a video of the behavior of your car when it goes into turtle suddenly. I would take a copy of the video into the dealership along with a printed copy of the warranty booklet, and tell them this is a safety issue resulting from a faulty battery. If they refuse, I would ask which specific criteria excludes this from being a warranty issue. Get everything in writing.

I would then take the car to another dealership in your area with a good reputation. See if they can somehow get something done. If not, I would get the rejection in writing from them as well. It's really absurd--I've seen a number of people post on the forums with problems and symptoms very similar to yours, and they got the battery repaired in days.
Currently the car does not enter turtle while driving. It either starts up with turtle, the EV warning symbol, and the "power is being limited" audio. Even in turtle it still has about 20 kw power which is more than enough to safely drive local flat roads at the posted 30 mph.

I love the video idea though. This morning I got in the car, turned it on, had the turtle etc. Turned it off, then back on 10 seconds later, still turtle, turned it off, then back on, voila, no turtle. Based on experience the past month, as long as it is not turned off, it will remain turtleless. I will try and get a video of this and post on youtube or something. Car is at 68% according to the dashboard meter.

Getting to another dealership is an option, but won't fix the blockage at Nissan EV Customer Service line. And I don't think it is the dealership that is making the decision on this.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:51 am

I just went back and looked at the 2013 warranty, https://www.nissanusa.com/content/dam/N ... ooklet.pdf (sse page 3) and there is an explicit pathway to move this along, ending in the BBB Autoline. I will follow this and document things going forward.

I really believe that when Nissan says " Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage" in the warranty, they are referring to the same part of the vehicle that they are describing in all of their advertising, such as this https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/elec ... ttery.html where they say it has a "62 kWh battery for 214 HP". The noun is singular, and if for some reason they intend to warranty only the modules, they would have said something like "Lithium-Ion Batteries Coverage". Plural not singular.

And I do not believe that a defective cell #44 has been ruled out in any way either.

Thanks for all the input above.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:03 am

MikeinPA wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:11 am
Thanks for the voltage check. These cell must have a very flat initial discharge curve, which might explain how cell #44 can look normal at higher SOC.
Voltage discharge curve for Leaf packs here:
https://pushevs.com/2018/01/29/2018-nis ... eal-specs/

(top graph is for 40 kWh packs, bottom graphs are for 24 kWh packs)

And yes, the discharge curve is quite flat, until the battery hits a low state of charge, typically around the VLBW. This is why you'll typically see <25 mv deltas which can rise to hundreds of mv when the pack is in a VLBW state. This is confusing to many people. If you see deltas of >100mv at 50% SOC or more, that's definitely a weak cell. However, the same 100mv delta at 7% SOC doesn't necessarily indicate a problem with a cell. Also, if a cell is replaced with a brand new cell, you will almost always see a significant voltage differential with that cell because the brand new cell generally has a higher capacity than the rest of the (degraded) pack.

And while your cell #44 (presumably 91 & 92) on Leafspy is weaker than the rest, I would not expect it to cause the turtle issues you're seeing. The voltage is still far above the minimum voltage cutoff (2.7V/cell or 3V/cell, IFIRC) that would normally trigger a turtle. I believe there is something else going on in addition to that cell being weak--and possibly causing the cell to be weak (such as a faulty BMS).
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:35 am

While looking at the capacity warranty section, on page 8 of the 2013 Leaf warranty, I realized that Nissan has explicitly defined what they consider to be the "LITHIUM–ION BATTERY", that is, the item receiving a 8 year materials and defect warranty described on page 7. Direct quote from the 2013 capacity warranty page 8 (emphasis added by me): "This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the Lithium-Ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion battery." So that's it, by their own warranty, they have defined the "LITHIUM–ION BATTERY" as the thing that gets taken out of and hopefully returned to the vehicle, and the things inside as "components". In particular, to replace capacity they will be replacing cells, and they have defined these as "components"--not the battery--so the idea that only the cells are covered under the 8 year warranty is doubly not credible . Warranty is here: https://www.nissanusa.com/content/dam/N ... ooklet.pdf

(excerpt from the warranty, begins on lower right of page 7 and flows to page 8):

LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty covers any repairs needed to correct defects in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions listed under the heading “WHAT IS NOT COVERED”. This warranty period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

(Continued on next page)

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the Lithium-Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the Lithium-Ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your Lithium-Ion battery to an “as new” condition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.
This Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage is subject to the exclusions listed under the heading “WHAT IS NOT COVERED.”

(excerpt ends)
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:40 pm

I wholeheartedly agree that the LBS/BMS should be covered, but the problem with the above is that it is an interpretation of what the warranty says - there is no explicit mention of the LBC in the warranty. 'Battery Components' can mean the cells and the cells alone, if you define "battery" the most common way - as a collection of cells. I'm writing this to forewarn and thus fore-arm you against what Nissan would say in court. I suggest BBB arbitration, for two reasons: first, Nissan has been ordered by the BBB to replace batteries in the past and they have done so. Second, Nissan has sometimes given in to a BBB opinion even earlier in the process, IIRC, and may do so in your case. They might at least offer a 50/50 deal.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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