frmercado
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Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:42 pm

Nissan should offer as stock equipment a 30 AMP capable EVSE with capabilities to charge 110/120 volts or 208-240 volts and offer the corresponding adapters to charge at any NEMA outlet. This upgrade would not be hard or expensive to make and I'm sure Panasonic would be more than willing to work with Nissan to make it happen. It would give Leaf owners, specially those who are leasing, more flexibility and options when it comes to charging and taking road trips.

RonDawg
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:11 pm

This has been discussed before, and there are two theories as to why Nissan does not offer a dual-voltage EVSE in the US:

1.) Nissan's contract with AeroVironment precludes them from openly recommending anything else;
2.) Because of the widely varying quality of typical garage/carport 120 volt outlets, and their ability to sustain a 12 amp draw continuously for up to 20 hours (or lack of same), Nissan would prefer you have a dedicated EVSE installed by a qualified professional. Nissan does not want to get blamed for the Leaf blowing fuses/tripping breakers regularly, or worse starting a fire, when the real cause was an electrical circuit of insufficient capacity and/or poor condition.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
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planet4ever
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:35 pm

I really don't see the advantage. Phil's EVSE Upgrade does everything needed for most people. Its only restriction over what you propose is 20A rather than 30A. For charging at home that means a typical charge of 15 kWh at the wall might take a bit over 3 hours at 20A, while it could be done in about 2:15 at 30A. Most people do their home charging overnight, and they couldn't care less if it takes a little more time. I'm not sure whether you were proposing a portable EVSE or not, but even if you were, nearly all charging away from home is done at public EVSEs or Quick Charge stations. The only common case I can think of where a 30A portable EVSE with a NEMA plug would be better is charging at an RV campground with 50A outlets.

As for your leasing concern, that is no problem at all. See the EVSE Upgrade FAQ: I am leasing, so is it still ok to upgrade my unit?

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frmercado
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:07 pm

@RonDawg

As to the first point, how car companish of Nissan... Way to shoot themselves on the foot. Yet another reason why Tesla will rule the EV market for years to come.

As for the second point, it would be fairly easy to build a charger smart enough for it to make a diagnostic of the quality of the grid they are connected to and adapt accordingly. I would also like to add that this charger should be offered only to be used as a backup or for traveling purposes. Not as permanent charging solution (although this could also be done, like Tesla does)

@planet4ever

The fact that you have to go through a third party for such a simple solution and that a multi billion dollar car company cannot provide it just doesn't makes sense and gives you a sense of amateurishness and lack of commitment to their EV program on the part of Nissan. Also, the fact that you have to pay $287 for a solution that should be provided by the vehicle manufacturer doesn't make sense, specially when you are only paying $199 a month on a lease agreement. IMO it is just not justified.

jlatl
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:21 pm

RonDawg wrote:This has been discussed before, and there are two theories as to why Nissan does not offer a dual-voltage EVSE in the US:

1.) Nissan's contract with AeroVironment precludes them from openly recommending anything else;
2.) Because of the widely varying quality of typical garage/carport 120 volt outlets, and their ability to sustain a 12 amp draw continuously for up to 20 hours (or lack of same), Nissan would prefer you have a dedicated EVSE installed by a qualified professional. Nissan does not want to get blamed for the Leaf blowing fuses/tripping breakers regularly, or worse starting a fire, when the real cause was an electrical circuit of insufficient capacity and/or poor condition.
Regarding the 12 amp draw and concerns about the quality of the average garage outlet, that is a valid concern. However, we don't need the standard EVSE to be modified to draw more than 12A at 120v.

Since the supplied EVSE can support 240v why not supply the unit with an odd, locking plug that goes to a pigtail for connection to the outlet. One pigtail would have the standard 120v plug and another would use a 240v twist lock connector.

For 120V still draw 12A. For 240V it could still draw 12A or go up to whatever the EVSE is rated for.

No increase in fire hazards, and to use for 240v you would still need to have an outlet installed by a qualified professional.
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Stanton
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:33 pm

frmercado wrote:@RonDawg

As to the first point, how car companish of Nissan... Way to shoot themselves on the foot. Yet another reason why Tesla will rule the EV market for years to come.

As for the second point, it would be fairly easy to build a charger smart enough for it to make a diagnostic of the quality of the grid they are connected to and adapt accordingly. I would also like to add that this charger should be offered only to be used as a backup or for traveling purposes. Not as permanent charging solution (although this could also be done, like Tesla does)
You're not thinking "big picture" or see the importance of standardization. Nissan's goal is affordable EV's for everyone (not just the rich), and a 110v EVSE is the lowest (cheapest) common denominator. Tesla did a lot of things right, but going forward with a proprietary charging configuration was not one of them; it doesn't encourage standardization nor necessarily work in all installations (at least the high power version).

The fact that the Nissan included EVSE can be so easily and economically upgraded is still a huge plus.
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RonDawg
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:56 pm

jlatl wrote:Regarding the 12 amp draw and concerns about the quality of the average garage outlet, that is a valid concern. However, we don't need the standard EVSE to be modified to draw more than 12A at 120v.

Since the supplied EVSE can support 240v why not supply the unit with an odd, locking plug that goes to a pigtail for connection to the outlet. One pigtail would have the standard 120v plug and another would use a 240v twist lock connector.

For 120V still draw 12A. For 240V it could still draw 12A or go up to whatever the EVSE is rated for.

No increase in fire hazards, and to use for 240v you would still need to have an outlet installed by a qualified professional.
The supplied EVSE does NOT support 240 volt current "out of the box." It needs to be modified by someone like EVSE Upgrade to be able to safely handle that kind of current. Nissan has long been aware of people who have plugged unmodified OEM EVSE's from North American-market Leafs into 240 volt outlets, will not warranty any EVSE subjected to same, and has sent out a TSB to dealers advising them to look for telltale high voltage damage whenever a customer complains about the EVSE not working anymore.

The rest of the argument falls back into what I was saying earlier: Nissan is discouraging folks from using the trickle charger, since they don't know the quality of your existing house wiring. Already there is one current post where a Leafer has reported a fire resulting from poor wiring used to supply the particular outlet that he was using to charge his car.

The only way to make it safer is to reduce the amp draw of the EVSE, like GM has done with more recent model Volts. But that will slow down the charging rate even more; on a car with a smallish battery like a Volt, that may be OK, but even with the Leaf's 24 kWH battery that would mean a 25+ hour recharge time at 120 volts/8 amps, and that does not include any charging losses.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

jlatl
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:09 pm

RonDawg wrote:
jlatl wrote:Regarding the 12 amp draw and concerns about the quality of the average garage outlet, that is a valid concern. However, we don't need the standard EVSE to be modified to draw more than 12A at 120v.

Since the supplied EVSE can support 240v why not supply the unit with an odd, locking plug that goes to a pigtail for connection to the outlet. One pigtail would have the standard 120v plug and another would use a 240v twist lock connector.

For 120V still draw 12A. For 240V it could still draw 12A or go up to whatever the EVSE is rated for.

No increase in fire hazards, and to use for 240v you would still need to have an outlet installed by a qualified professional.
The supplied EVSE does NOT support 240 volt current "out of the box." It needs to be modified by someone like EVSE Upgrade to be able to safely handle that kind of current. Nissan has long been aware of people who have plugged unmodified OEM EVSE's from North American-market Leafs into 240 volt outlets, will not warranty any EVSE subjected to same, and has sent out a TSB to dealers advising them to look for telltale high voltage damage whenever a customer complains about the EVSE not working anymore.

The rest of the argument falls back into what I was saying earlier: Nissan is discouraging folks from using the trickle charger, since they don't know the quality of your existing house wiring. Already there is one current post where a Leafer has reported a fire resulting from poor wiring used to supply the particular outlet that he was using to charge his car.

The only way to make it safer is to reduce the amp draw of the EVSE, like GM has done with more recent model Volts. But that will slow down the charging rate even more; on a car with a smallish battery like a Volt, that may be OK, but even with the Leaf's 24 kWH battery that would mean a 25+ hour recharge time at 120 volts/8 amps, and that does not include any charging losses.
I understand it needs to be modified. I wonder how much such a modification would cost if supplied by the factory. It sounds like most of the components are already capable. Maybe an option or part of the package that gives us the bigger charger (6.6kW)?

120v, 12A = 16.6 hours from dead to full (not counting charge tapering)
240v, 12A = 8.3 hours from dead to full (not counting charge tapering)

Big difference and would help lead people away from 120v charge/outlets if they could use the EVSE that came with the car.
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RonDawg
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:16 pm

jlatl wrote:I understand it needs to be modified. I wonder how much such a modification would cost if supplied by the factory. It sounds like most of the components are already capable. Maybe an option or part of the package that gives us the bigger charger (6.6kW)?

120v, 12A = 16.6 hours from dead to full (not counting charge tapering)
240v, 12A = 8.3 hours from dead to full (not counting charge tapering)

Big difference and would help lead people away from 120v charge/outlets if they could use the EVSE that came with the car.
But you're missing the point: Nissan USA does not want you using the OEM EVSE at all as your primary charging source. Otherwise, if they truly wanted you to use the OEM EVSE, they would make it 240 volt-only, but that would cut into sales as people would have to buy and install a 240 volt outlet first.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
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davewill
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Re: Nema 30 amp/240V capable EVSE.

Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:40 pm

I can't disagree with the OP. It would be nice if Nissan had provided an EVSE similar to the one that Tesla provides for their cars, with adapters and 120v/240v capabilities. It would need to be similar where the adapters signal the max power level, and there would need to be some way to manually dial down the amps (Tesla does it in the car, but it could be done on the EVSE as well).

Since Tesla can sell theirs for $650, and Nissan's sells for quite a bit more than that, one assumes it would be possible. Nissan just didn't. They undoubtedly have their reasons, whether it's perceived safety issues, agreement with AV, or not wanting to deal with customer support, but they all boil down in the end to, "They didn't want to badly enough."
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