jbsocdelica
Gold Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 1:20 am
Delivery Date: 05 May 2016

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:37 pm

Alozzy;

That's really fascinating about the slightly larger tires being more accurate!

So given that:

"The discharge rate of each cell should be lower in a 62 kWh pack vs a 40 kWh pack, so that should mean less heat. Also, on average the depth of discharge should be lower with the larger pack. Although that's a secondary factor to pack degradation (with ambient temperature being the dominant one), it's still significant."

Would I thus expect less than .042 degradation on the 62 KWh? That sounds like good news.

My next challenge will be to not fully charge the battery.

So how are you digging the 1 1/4 hitch?
Last edited by jbsocdelica on Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
02 Gem (curtis controller mod 45 mph)
03 Dynasty IT (mod 48 mph)
11 Leaf (battery replaced $1k compromise)
11 Leaf (62 kWh)
ICE: Delica, VW Bus, Ghia, Volvo122, 400E, AWD Axxess

cwerdna
Posts: 11659
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:10 pm

jbsocdelica wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:24 pm
In short, I suspect at some point, I'll need a rear spring part # for a 2011 Leaf after upgrading to 62kw.

Longer story: I am in the process of having my 2011 Leaf (Beige interior) upgraded to 62kw
jbsocdelica wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:49 pm

$7500 62kw battery
$1300 installation
...
Their pricing ranges from 11 to 12k (and for the moment, is only available for 2013-2017 models to get to 62 KW).

For '11 and '12 they do upgrade from 24kw to 30 and 40kw for 5k and 9k respectively.
jbsocdelica wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:39 pm
So, I calculated the Leaf 2011 with 64 KW would come in at about 173lb less than then the Leaf 2019 Extended (see previous post).
...
If you kept your tires stock, remind me your concerns about the additional 22kw?

Also there maybe one more reason for 64 kw upgrade that I just thought of. Most 62 kw
jbsocdelica wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:32 am
This is worth pondering: 2011 Leaf with 62 kw + just over 250 lb extra weight or...

...
64 kw weight: 410 kg (904 lb)
24 kw weight: 294 kg (648 lbs

Difference 116 kg (256 lb)

4) Difference after upgrade: Nissan Leaf 2019 (4751) - Nissan Leaf 2011 with 64 kw (4322 + 256) 4578 : difference 173lb / 78 kg)

Even though you're leaning to 40kw, I highly recommend that you think once more about going the 62kw for those reasons, and
Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 85#p595985), are you aware of the difference?

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:00 am

cwerdna wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:10 pm

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 85#p595985), are you aware of the difference?
There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

cwerdna
Posts: 11659
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:10 am

alozzy wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:00 am
cwerdna wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:10 pm

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 85#p595985), are you aware of the difference?
There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...
That's fine about your first point, but I always like places I'm on to be exchanging correct information. Let's make sure EV enthusiasts can at least use the proper units and terminology. After all, if we can't get it right, can we expect everyone else to? How about bad information being perpetuated by people who should know better? We should try to stop that.

When/if it comes time to talk about charging speed vs battery capacity or energy? See below for example of the confusion and useless discussion it can cause.
When Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter didn't even work on the Model 3 (and didn't work until ~July 2019), someone (K-MTG) who didn't know WTF they were talking about somehow got their own post deleted. I and someone else quoted their reply for clarification: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-2470307.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 43#p564743 has a pointer to a total cluster@$%#$%. What's scary is what someone else observed about Reeler at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 98#p564998. :shock:

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:15 am

jbsocdelica wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:37 pm
... Would I thus expect less than .042 degradation on the 62 KWh? That sounds like good news.

My next challenge will be to not fully charge the battery.

So how are you digging the 1 1/4 hitch?
I'm not sure what you derived that .042 figure from, but I think it would be hard to quantify anyways - there are so many variables. I think it's safe to say that pack degradation should be slower, due to the lower discharge rate per cell (40 kWh pack has 192 cells, 62 kWh pack has 288 cells). My understanding is that the 192 cells pack has 96 cells in series (3.6v x 96 = 346v nominal, about 394v max) as does the 288 cell pack.

So, there are (2) parallel groups (96 x 2 = 192) in a 40 kWh pack and (3) parallel groups (96 x 3=288) in a 62 kWh pack. All other things being equal, there should be less internal resistance and less heat per cell, for a given power output.

The 1-1/4" hitch Curt hitch I bought works great!
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

alozzy
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:24 am

@cwerdna I appreciate what you are saying, you're definitely preaching to the converted here :-)

I just feel like it's mission impossible...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

jbsocdelica
Gold Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 1:20 am
Delivery Date: 05 May 2016

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:39 am

@cwerdna -- Thanks so much for pointing out my error in KW vs. kWh.

That's what were here for, learning. Keep it coming, and can't wait to learn more about your EV journey! Your role as an educator is really important for folks like me who are excited the EV possibilities and are still learning the 'speak.'

Mahalo
Last edited by jbsocdelica on Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02 Gem (curtis controller mod 45 mph)
03 Dynasty IT (mod 48 mph)
11 Leaf (battery replaced $1k compromise)
11 Leaf (62 kWh)
ICE: Delica, VW Bus, Ghia, Volvo122, 400E, AWD Axxess

jbsocdelica
Gold Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 1:20 am
Delivery Date: 05 May 2016

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible 62kWh

Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:48 am

Alozzy;

Glad the hitch is working out, couldn't decide between 1 1/4 vs. 2 inch initially especially as the former is so much cheaper than the latter. For you it is for bicycle hitch? I splurged thinking it might be a little better for heavier stuff, but I wonder if it's overkill.

How is your EV journey going?

And, pretty cool to get the education of kw vs. kWh (there will be a lot of that here for me, I'm sure and appreciative)

also

"I'm not sure what you derived that .042 figure from, but I think it would be hard to quantify anyways - there are so many variables. I think it's safe to say that pack degradation should be slower, due to the lower discharge rate per cell (40 kWh pack has 192 cells, 62 kWh pack has 288 cells). My understanding is that the 192 cells pack has 96 cells in series (3.6v x 96 = 346v nominal, about 394v max) as does the 288 cell pack.

So, there are (2) parallel groups (96 x 2 = 192) in a 40 kWh pack and (3) parallel groups (96 x 3=288) in a 62 kWh pack. All other things being equal, there should be less internal resistance and less heat per cell, for a given power output."

I can see there be any number of variables too in terms of discharge. I guess all (most?) of us Leafers up to this point have to deal with the lack of a liquid cooled battery. Wonder about the combustion issues across platforms and where Leaf stands in the crowd?
02 Gem (curtis controller mod 45 mph)
03 Dynasty IT (mod 48 mph)
11 Leaf (battery replaced $1k compromise)
11 Leaf (62 kWh)
ICE: Delica, VW Bus, Ghia, Volvo122, 400E, AWD Axxess

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 5787
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:39 am

There have been anecdotes that the larger LEAF batteries degrade slower than the smaller versions, and the notion that a bigger battery will generate less heat because it operates at a lower C rate is just physics. On the flip side though, tight packaging is expected to increase thermal resistance so it is not a slam dunk how the bigger battery life overall will fare.

But for any LEAF battery size , a warm climate is going to be tough on LEAF batteries and a hot climate is a recipe for a short lived LEAF battery.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15423
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:41 am

alozzy wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:00 am
cwerdna wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:10 pm

Battery capacity is measured in kWh, not "kw".

Since you've made the same error in multiple posts including after I pointed it out two days ago (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 85#p595985), are you aware of the difference?
There are probably 100 million adults in the US alone who wouldn't know nor understand the difference (nor likely care).

I would venture to guess that my wife and sister, who both drive a LEAF, wouldn't know the difference either. If I bothered to explain it to them, they would either go glassy eyed, or forget a couple of days later anyways.

Why do you let this bother you so much? You're fighting a loosing battle...
Has to be the lamest defense of ignorance I have read in years.

On another note; I question your desire to have a more accurate speedometer (something most cars don't have) over sacrificing odometer accuracy? Cause you can't have both
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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