DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2084
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:57 pm

That is too funny. My neighbor has 2 of them, one for driving and one for souping up..he was happy when we bought a second Leaf Plus as he looked less fanatic as we now had twins too.

Dave, I was thinking about your 10% not being an accident comment. This might suggest that the BMS might gently return the buffer over a few years to give you the impression of minimal range loss. Beyond 5 years no one would remember or care as battery tech would move on.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15052
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:02 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:57 pm
That is too funny. My neighbor has 2 of them, one for driving and one for souping up..he was happy when we bought a second Leaf Plus as he looked less fanatic as we now had twins too.

Dave, I was thinking about your 10% not being an accident comment. This might suggest that the BMS might gently return the buffer over a few years to give you the impression of minimal range loss. Beyond 5 years no one would remember or care as battery tech would move on.
Nope, its not a buffer its a hidden range. The GOM works a lot like a gas gauge. Gas up and the needle doesn't move for a long time. Needle hits E and you can still keep going. First low battery warning comes on at 3/16th of a charge. When did the gas light come on? same 3/16th.

Nothing but a bunch of gasoline engineers trying to do electric. :lol:
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15492
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:16 am

Nope, its not a buffer its a hidden range.
A distinction without a difference, in this case.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15052
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:29 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:16 am
Nope, its not a buffer its a hidden range.
A distinction without a difference, in this case.
Buffer; capacity used to maintain original range. Buffer does not add to range nor is generally accessible by vehicle w/o degradation

Hidden Capacity; range that is available for use but not displayed or indicated by vehicle.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2084
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:11 am

Its funny but you are right regarding similarity to gas gauge . I was referring though too the additional buffer the bms takes in the quarterly adjustments.

For the Leaf at 86%, what SOH do you think he is really at?
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15492
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:26 pm

The reserved capacity does both things: it provides additional range below 'Empty' and it probably gets largely used up over the years to maintain the indicated capacity higher for longer. It's a dessert AND a floor wax. ;)
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:05 pm

There has been a lot of discussion about "hidden" or "reserve" capacity over the years. My experience with 2011 and 2015 is that the entire capacity of the battery (that the LBC would allow) was useable when new and when degraded. The maximum charge was dictated by maximum cell voltage and deep discharge was dictated by minimum cell voltage (allowable levels did not change as battery deteriorated) so the entire capacity was useable, but one needed to be adventurous to use the lower limits. It is too soon to tell about the 2019, but I suspect it functions the same way with limits being dictated by minimum and maximum cell voltages (although allowable maximum voltage is higher and minimum may be lower). Since the 62 kWh battery has so much more capacity, the LBC (lithium battery controller, Nissan's name for the BMS or battery management system) can reserve or hide more of the overall capacity without unduly impacting apparent useable range so there is as much actual range left when the SOC on the dash goes to ---% as there was with the 24 kWh battery when the first low battery warning came in (49 GIDS) if the cells are reasonably well balanced.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2084
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:04 pm

GaryAZ, is your Leaf still sitting at 97% SOH?
Last edited by DougWantsALeaf on Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15052
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:26 pm
The reserved capacity does both things: it provides additional range below 'Empty' and it probably gets largely used up over the years to maintain the indicated capacity higher for longer. It's a dessert AND a floor wax. ;)
True true and there is still the upward adjustments complicating the picture. We all know the pack will never gain any appreciable capacity. Once its gone, its gone. On my ZENN, I had lead acid batteries and there was this process that would "shock" the batteries to break loose some of the buildup on the plates which should allow more capacity but I never really saw any noticeable improvement but without ZENN Spy, it would have been tough to notice.

But that was one reason why I tracked the dash SOC against LEAF Spy from 100% to "_ _ _" I wish I would have done it when it was new but I plan to repeat the experiment when I lose another 5% SOH. Hopefully that will be many years from now.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:53 pm

My latest battery statistics as of 7/4/2020 (after full charge overnight):
L2 charging energy from wall=60.74 kWh
Miles driven=168.7 (dash) or 175.1 actual miles (odometer error is 3.8% with new tires)
Dash display=3.2 mi/kWh
Actual wall to wheels: 168.7/60.74=2.78 mi/kWh or 2.88 mi/kWh with odometer error factored in
AHr=170.35
SOH=96.57%
Hx=107.97%
V=400.11
Odometer=18,252
QC=6
L1/L2=129
Cell Voltages (min, avg, max)=4.164, 4.168, 4.184 V
Delta=20 mV
Battery Temperatures=106.7, 107.6, 106.5 degrees F
GIDS=711
Before charging:
AHr=170.37
SOH=96.58%
Hx=107.97%
V=324.42
L1/L2=128
Cell Voltages=3.341, 3.379, 3.410 V
Delta=69 mV
Battery Temperatures=102.7, 104.2, 105.1 degrees F
GIDS=46

Average miles driven per charge since new (includes charges by factory and dealers along with some testing of timers and short test charges from portable generators):
18,252/(6+128)=136.2 average miles/charge (not including odometer error)

Fewer miles driven per day and fewer freeway miles since early March are apparently causing the LEAF Spy numbers to drop a little faster than before. It will be interesting to see the next 90-day adjustment (should be about 7/20) and also the next full discharge test (about 8/10) after a full year of Phoenix heat.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

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