User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:48 am

lorenfb wrote:And anyone that has an in-series amp meter can also easily and ACCURATELY measure that
current by carefully NOT interrupting the 'sleep' current when attaching the meter, thus presenting
a Leaf's ECU from entering its active mode increasing the current.
Yep, that's the trick. If you aren't careful, you'll blow the fuse in your meter, which is no big deal if you happen to have another one handy.

Feel free to measure and post a week-long plot of LEAF 12V battery current with mA resolution.
lorenfb wrote:This thread is not like other threads, e.g. Global Warning, Politics, Guns, & FCBEVs, where hyperbole can be typically presented without actual test data to support one's case.
Like I said, I'm the only one who has measured and provide that data in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can correct that by providing a link to the data. You, on the other hand, have not provide a single shread of data in this thread. Just a bunch of FUD.
Last edited by RegGuheert on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:52 am

69800 wrote:
AndyH wrote:Has anyone measured the unloaded output of the charger on the Leaf?

This is important because we cannot tell the set voltage by logging the battery voltage. If one has a partially discharged battery of any type connected to a variable power supply, one can turn the voltage up to 50 and the amperage to 10 and the voltage at the battery will still be 12.0. We wouldn't be able to measure a voltage above the safe limit of the battery until it's more than 100% charged. Since the car's DC-DC and/or charger isn't fully charging the car, any voltage logged will reflect the battery, not the charger output.

The experiment I'd do is to connect a logger to the battery, then plug the car in for a 100% charge - and then leave the car plugged-in for at least another 12 hours after the traction battery's full.
I can't remember where I read it but Ingineer measured the output and I was surprise at how many amps it put out. It was way more than adequate but I cant quote the number.
Thanks - I followed Reg's link and agree that the current capability is more than sufficient. I still don't see any info on the voltages (other than about 13V) or any indication that the DC-DC is actually a 2- or 3-stage battery charger. The voltages are the first thing I'd want to know if I was troubleshooting a charging problem.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:54 am

AndyH wrote:Thanks - I followed Reg's link and agree that the current capability is more than sufficient. I still don't see any info on the voltages (other than about 13V) or any indication that the DC-DC is actually a 2- or 3-stage battery charger. The voltages are the first thing I'd want to know if I was troubleshooting a charging problem.
We've provided many plots of the voltage. It's a three-stage charger (but with the output current being so high, the bulk (CC) mode will not last long). The problem is that it enters float mode long before it should.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:30 am

RegGuheert wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:...(and I will try to measure how long the charger stays at 14.5V)...
I plugged in and ran in the house for a couple of minutes. By the time I came out, it had already dropped down to 13.1V. So I only know that the charging at 14.5V lasted less than five minutes. That's unfortunate, since it has up to three hours (today) to do the job properly.
When I started the car today, I didn't have the meter facing me. By the time I had gotten out of the driver's seat and walked over to the meter, it was already down at 13.1V. So it charged for less than 30 seconds.

After arriving home and letting the car sit for about an hour, the voltage has risen to 12.67V, so it DID actually add some charge during this trip, although it did not fully charge the battery. (It was at 12.61V before I connected the charger this morning.)
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

lorenfb
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:05 pm

Battery maintainer (external charger w/o special micro-controller type charger) battery voltage data for
various vehicles with access to for data measurements; vehicle, battery age, battery maintained voltage,
frequency of driving:

BMW 4 Dr, 4 yrs, 13.04, once/6 months
M/B Coupe, 6 yrs, 13.04, once/3 months
Mini Cooper S, 7 yrs, 12.61 once/6 months
Nissan Pathfinder, 3 yrs, 12.44, once/week (only solar panel with max. of 50-75 ma)
Suzuki GSX 1000, 11 yrs, 12.88, once/6 months

All the above are lead-acid batteries.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

lorenfb
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:12 pm

RegGuheert wrote:]Like I said, I'm the only one who has measured and provide that data in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can correct that by providing a link to the data. You, on the other hand, have not provide a single shread of data in this thread. Just a bunch of FUD.
You missed this?

Posted 4/6:

Note: The 'sleep'/standby current draw (hood closed, doors locked) is 60-70 ma without any
sun (morning overcast). Based on this and assuming half capacity (usable battery) of a 70 Ahr
battery, then that results in about a maximum of 21 days (70 Ahr / (2 X 70 ma X 24) if left
without any external charging.

Posted 4/8:

Maybe those having shortened battery lives probably should measure the battery's off-state current
draw (Leaf in the sleep mode) and not assume that the shortened battery life is related to an
inadequate charging voltage. As previously indicated, my Leaf draws about 60-70 ma in its
sleep mode with no solar panel charging. On a fairly sunny day, the battery is charged by about
10 ma from the panel, which is not much but it's positive into battery and it has overcome the
60-70 ma sleep current and eliminated the draw current completely. Given my data and previous
years of battery experience, I would not recommend attaching a 12 volt battery charger to a Leaf.

Note: The 4/8 data measurement was done with a Fluke in-series with the battery, i.e. no inductive
measurement.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm

lorenfb wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:]Like I said, I'm the only one who has measured and provide that data in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can correct that by providing a link to the data. You, on the other hand, have not provide a single shread of data in this thread. Just a bunch of FUD.
You missed this?

Posted 4/6:

Note: The 'sleep'/standby current draw (hood closed, doors locked) is 60-70 ma without any
sun (morning overcast). Based on this and assuming half capacity (usable battery) of a 70 Ahr
battery, then that results in about a maximum of 21 days (70 Ahr / (2 X 70 ma X 24) if left
without any external charging.

Posted 4/8:

Maybe those having shortened battery lives probably should measure the battery's off-state current
draw (Leaf in the sleep mode) and not assume that the shortened battery life is related to an
inadequate charging voltage. As previously indicated, my Leaf draws about 60-70 ma in its
sleep mode with no solar panel charging. On a fairly sunny day, the battery is charged by about
10 ma from the panel, which is not much but it's positive into battery and it has overcome the
60-70 ma sleep current and eliminated the draw current completely. Given my data and previous
years of battery experience, I would not recommend attaching a 12 volt battery charger to a Leaf.

Note: The 4/8 data measurement was done with a Fluke in-series with the battery, i.e. no inductive
measurement.
Yes, I missed it. And it doesn't match my measurements from October 2012(MY2011, not plugged in, no ELM327, parked in the garage):
RegGuheert wrote:- For the first ten minutes or so the car drew 330mA.
- After about 10 minutes, the tare current dropped to a lower value. It normally sat at 15mA, but pulsed up to 24mA every two seconds or so.
- Occasionally it would rise up to 115mA for a few seconds. I do not know how often this occurs.
Average draw for my MY2011 LEAF is around 25mA.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:49 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
AndyH wrote:Thanks - I followed Reg's link and agree that the current capability is more than sufficient. I still don't see any info on the voltages (other than about 13V) or any indication that the DC-DC is actually a 2- or 3-stage battery charger. The voltages are the first thing I'd want to know if I was troubleshooting a charging problem.
We've provided many plots of the voltage. It's a three-stage charger (but with the output current being so high, the bulk (CC) mode will not last long). The problem is that it enters float mode long before it should.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there's at least one communication disconnect here. I'll try one more time and then leave it.

I have seen the plots. The plots presented are taken with the "charger" (more likely a DC-DC, but I can't yet confirm or deny that) and the battery in the circuit. Since I know that the existence of the battery in the circuit will mask the actual voltage setting of the DC-DC or charger until after the battery is at 100% state of charge (through both the constant current bulk phase and the constant voltage saturation phase), I have yet to see a chart from a fully charged/saturated battery that shows that the DC-DC is providing more than 13.5VDC - and we all know that is not enough to fully charge a flooded lead-acid battery. Bottom line: I've seen people 'say' it's a charger (though ingineer appears to make clear it's a DC-DC), but haven't yet seen a trace that actually looks like a two- or three-stage lead acid battery charger profile. Therefore, I think that an important step might have been jumped over and replaced with an assumption.

The point's likely moot as it appears folks have decided to skip the rest of the troubleshooting and go straight for a battery tender and that's fine - path of least resistance and all. I absolutely understand the desire to have something that just works!

Enjoy the project.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

lorenfb
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:03 pm

This thread attempts to resolve two issues but as yet has failed to provide any long term data
to resolve the two issues:

1. Whether the Leaf provides an inadequate charging voltage (13.1) resulting in reduced battery longevity,
and if so what is an appropriate charging voltage for long term non-use of a lead-acid battery.
2. Whether the Leaf requires supplemental lead-acid battery charging and at what frequency.

Without any supporting data, any conclusion is only anecdotal.

Although my data below is hardly robust by any measure, my conclusion to both 1 & 2 is no.
Until conclusive data can be provided otherwise, my view of the Leaf's lead-acid battery is unchanged.

My data:

BMW 4 Dr, 4 yrs, 13.04, once/6 months
M/B Coupe, 6 yrs, 13.04, once/3 months
Mini Cooper S, 7 yrs, 12.61, once/6 months
Nissan Pathfinder, 3 yrs, 12.44, once/week (only solar panel with max. of 50-75 ma)
Suzuki GSX 1000, 11 yrs, 12.88, once/6 months
Porsche 911, 3 yrs, 13.43, once/2 years
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:23 am

AndyH wrote:I have yet to see a chart from a fully charged/saturated battery that shows that the DC-DC is providing more than 13.5VDC...
I have never provided such a plot, but I have discussed on many occasions in this forum (10s of times) that the battery voltage in the LEAF does go to 14.5V when either the LEAF is started or charging begins. But when I have plotted voltage data (that I recorded manually) from my LEAF's battery, I have only ever plotted a series of resting voltages (connected by straight lines, which is not really what occurs between the points), so you have never seen a plot from me with voltages over 13V.

That said, 69800 has provided a couple of plots of battery voltage which DO show the 14V+ voltages which come from the LEAF. One was here. 69800 has provided me with the raw data from that plot and I have recreated that chart using Excel, Here it is:

Image

The portion up until April 7 is the result of a charge by an external Battery Tender. (The Battery Tender may have been removed sometime during the day on April 6.) After that, it is all LEAF. You can find the periods when the LEAF was charging or driven by looking for the 13.1V plateaus. Those plateaus are the float phase of the three-stage charger in the LEAF. At the beginning of many of these, you will see a spike up to above 14V. That is the absorption portion of the three-stage charger in the LEAF. The reason you do not ALWAYS see this phase of the charging is that 69800's data acquisition system was sampling only every five minutes. As I mentioned in a very recent thread, the LEAF's charger often dwells in the absorption phase for less than five minutes. Sometimes it stays there less than thirty seconds. As a result these spikes will not always be caught when the voltage is sampled only every five minutes.
AndyH wrote:... - and we all know that is not enough to fully charge a flooded lead-acid battery.
Hopefully everyone can agree on that point!
AndyH wrote:Bottom line: I've seen people 'say' it's a charger (though ingineer appears to make clear it's a DC-DC),...
Like many modern battery chargers, it's a charger that's a DC/DC converter. They are one and the same thing.
AndyH wrote:...but haven't yet seen a trace that actually looks like a two- or three-stage lead acid battery charger profile.
I agree that the charging profile from the LEAF doesn't look like a lot of traces you would see from other chargers. There are two main reasons for this: 1) It has such a high charging current that the Bulk charging phase occurs almost instantly and 2) It (usually) does not dwell at the absorption voltage (14V+) long enough to properly charge the battery. That second reason is my major beef with LEAF's battery charger.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Return to “Batteries & Charging”