Official BMW i3 thread

I'm shocked that the Frankenplug isn't standard, and more shocked that it's $2000 to put a plug in a premade hole that will have one plug or the other anyway.

Hey, BMW, I wouldn't consider your car with a Frankenplug, but I'll pay $2000 for a CHAdeMO plug and the REx motor.

But, since BMW is part of a consortium bloc, I'll bet that one falls on deaf ears. In other news, world leader Tesla is offering a CHAdeMO DC adapter this fall and are using the Mennekes Type 2 DC now for Euro-land, plus their own proprietary Supercharger plug for the USA/Canada. Hmmm, they don't seem to care what country or bloc you're a member of... they just make electric cars that charge everywhere!

SanDust said:

Agree with the review. I wanted to like it but simply don't. Looks like a Rocky Mountain Institute design exercise not a $55,000 car. Comparing it to the Leaf and the Volt, take out the range extender and you have a less functional Leaf for twice the price. Add the range extender and it's a Volt with less utility at a higher price. With or without the range extender it's not half as attractive as the Fiat 500e.

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It is all a question of perspective. Facts follow the narrative rather than the other way round.

Comparing it to the Leaf and the Volt, take out the range extender and you have a premium Leaf range EV with carbon fiber and thermal cooling. Add the range extender and it's a Volt with more than double the EV range.

It combines the "best" of Leaf & Volt. Of course being a BMW, it will be more expensive but will serve the status conscious well.

evnow said:

Comparing it to the Leaf and the Volt, take out the range extender and you have a premium Leaf range EV with carbon fiber and thermal cooling. Add the range extender and it's a Volt with more than double the EV range.

It combines the "best" of Leaf & Volt. Of course being a BMW, it will be more expensive but will serve the status conscious well.

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It may be a max Leaf as you say, but its 87 mile Rex range at a compromised performance level doesn't come close to the Rex range and performance of the Volt. Saying 'it combines the "best" of both' is purely hogwash. That said, the BMW name gives it a lot of credibility which make things interesting. I have no idea if it will be a success or a flop due to its bizarre styling and meager Rex performance, but it's sure going to be interesting to see where the market goes with it.

blackmamba said:

It may be a max Leaf as you say, but its 87 mile Rex range at a compromised performance level doesn't come close to the Rex range and performance of the Volt. Saying 'it combines the "best" of both' is purely hogwash. That said, the BMW name gives it a lot of credibility which make things interesting. I have no idea if it will be a success or a flop due to its bizarre styling and meager Rex performance, but it's sure going to be interesting to see where the market goes with it.

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I'm not sure if it's fair to say that the REx performance will be as severely compromised as your post would imply. The jury is still out, but I have maintained from the beginning that if the REx was augmented with battery power, the difference relative to purely electric mode might not be noticeable. The Volt operates differently in charge sustaining mode, I believe.

Tom mentioned that he learned in a conversation with BMW representatives the orher day that the REx should not be considered as a limp-home feature. I would therefore caution not to jump to conclusions before all the facts are known. Although I too was hoping for more on couple of fronts, the i3 could prove to be an effective entrant in its market segment, with specs that are comparable to both the LEAF and the Volt.

Let's see how it does, it's always good to have more options on the EV market.

blackmamba said:

Saying 'it combines the "best" of both' is purely hogwash.

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I think evnow's point is that, from an EV-centric perspective, the best thing about the leaf is its pure EV range. The i3 looks to have slightly more pure EV range than the Leaf. The best thing about the Volt, from an EV-centric perspective, is that it has TMS and a range extender. The i3 has both of these as well. So the i3 does combine the best of both. Unfortunately, it sort of combines the price, too.
Style-wise, I think it looks good but it's hard to tell from the pictures, I need to see one in person. If the lease rates are right on these, I would definitely consider one.

That "review" is asinine. First, he hasn't driven the car. More importantly, the i3 is NOT BMW's answer to the Model S. That is the i8. The i3 and Model S are not built with the same purpose in mind. The i3 is a city car. The Model S is a grand tourer. That's not to say you can't use the Tesla in the city or the i3 on a well-planned road trip, but the point is that the i3 was not meant to compete with the Tesla.

And that whole argument about being "good for an electric car" is equally stupid. The i3 will get to 60 as fast or faster than a 320i, which costs just about as much once you option it up to get what comes standard on the i3.

jhm614 said:

blackmamba said:

Saying 'it combines the "best" of both' is purely hogwash.

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I think evnow's point is that, from an EV-centric perspective, the best thing about the leaf is its pure EV range. The i3 looks to have slightly more pure EV range than the Leaf.

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correction, the i3 looks to have slightly less pure EV range than the Leaf.

NEDC cycles
i3 190km
i3+REX 170km
LEAF 199km

this is a city type cycle, so if the LEAF is 5%-15% more range in the city...

and as far vs the volt, at least the volt has a normal gas tank

ydnas7 said:

NEDC cycles
i3 190km
i3+REX 170km
LEAF 199km

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I stand corrected! When I got my Leaf the NEDC was 175km. I had no idea the '13 had that large of an improvement. Still, I think the i3 is a pretty good combo of pure EV range & REX.

SanDust said:

Review in Slate: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/07/29/bmw_i3_review_electric_car_is_a_cheap_ugly_tesla_model_s_with_an_suv_on.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Agree with the review. I wanted to like it but simply don't. Looks like a Rocky Mountain Institute design exercise not a $55,000 car. Comparing it to the Leaf and the Volt, take out the range extender and you have a less functional Leaf for twice the price. Add the range extender and it's a Volt with less utility at a higher price. With or without the range extender it's not half as attractive as the Fiat 500e.
Of course it's faster than any of those cars. Not a speed demon though. If speed is your thing, compared to the Spark, you're paying almost $30,000 to get to 60 MPH .4 seconds faster. You'd pay a lot less per/10th with a Model S. With the range extender you're paying $30,000 more to go .3 seconds slower.

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Let's keep the price comparisons apples-to-apples. The base i3 is a touch over $42k and comes quite well equipped. The Spark is tiny and cheap feeling by comparison, and the price difference is more like $17k. Not chump change, to be sure, but not $30k. And the Fiat is also a tiny 2 door with awful torque steer, at least the one I drove, and it's slow by comparison.

As for speed, I need a car that is fairly quick, combined with the practicality to seat at least four and some baggage. In an ideal world, I could have three or more cars around, and one might be a Spark EV just for fun driving, if it really turns out to be a good all around performer. But I can hack only two cars, and that's it. So a quick, comfortable, efficient EV that's a ball to drive like the i3 may turn out to be, makes a nice compromise.

I'll agree with evnow in saying that the BEV i3 is a much faster, more efficient rear drive LEAF with TMS., and compared with a Volt, the REx i3 is roomier inside, has a better trunk, a frunk, is faster, more efficient and has twice the AER. If most Volt drivers work hard not to use any gas in daily driving, that would be far easier in an i3 and the car could still be used for longer drives.

The teeny gasoline tank is strictly for California. I predict that a bigger gas tank will be the number one modification for folks that ABSOLUTELY have to have more range. I'll bet they keep their California HOV sticker, too.

jhm614 said:

The i3 looks to have slightly more pure EV range than the Leaf. The best thing about the Volt, from an EV-centric perspective, is that it has TMS and a range extender. The i3 has both of these as well. So the i3 does combine the best of both.

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No it does not combine the best of both - the i3 with Rex won't make it from LA to SF nonstop if one follows BMW's recommendation of not piling on tank after tank of nonstop driving. I don't get what EV mentality is - the ICE backup you use to cover those situations your EV cannot manage vs. the Volt's ICE backup and EV capability wrapped in one package - both are pretty much similar other than somewhat less real world EV driving range in the Volt in contrast to (most likely) more pollution generated and higher insurance/license/parking space costs generated by having another vehicle around to fill in the blanks. The Volt does it all without any compromises. The i3 does not from what I have read, but it does offer an antidote to range anxiety.

blackmamba said:

No it does not combine the best of both - the i3 with Rex won't make it from LA to SF nonstop if one follows BMW's recommendation of not piling on tank after tank of nonstop driving.

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Yes, but that does not mean that the i3 is not capable of doing that. Take another similar example: Nissan discourages level 1 charging in the manual, yet a number of owners rely on it exclusively. This does not mean that the manufacturer recommendation is wrong, it's just that we might be interpreting the rationale behind it, and the implied consequences incorrectly.

blackmamba said:

The Volt does it all without any compromises. The i3 does not from what I have read, but it does offer an antidote to range anxiety.

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Yes, indeed. That said, one of the main concerns Volt owners have is to drive most of their miles on electricity. Not only is it a nicer experience, it's cheaper too, and the drivers are very motivated to stay electric as much as possible. Since most of the trips are local and cover short-distances, a lot of the concerns and activities concentrate around recharging the car. The i3 can provide some respite there with its longer EV range. Conversely, LEAF drivers get out of their comfort zone on days when they need to cover 80, 100, or perhaps even 200 miles. Many would take their Prius on such days to avoid the hassles of looking for charging or being subject to range anxiety. This is where the i3 with REx can help also. Where it cannot help as effectively are long-distance trips or cross-country drives. Although that's true, how frequent are those trips? Would it perhaps make sense to take another vehicle on such a journey or consider flying?

blackmamba said:

No it does not combine the best of both - the i3 with Rex won't make it from LA to SF nonstop if one follows BMW's recommendation of not piling on tank after tank of nonstop driving. I don't get what EV mentality is - the ICE backup you use to cover those situations your EV cannot manage vs. the Volt's ICE backup and EV capability wrapped in one package - both are pretty much similar other than somewhat less real world EV driving range in the Volt in contrast to (most likely) more pollution generated and higher insurance/license/parking space costs generated by having another vehicle around to fill in the blanks. The Volt does it all without any compromises. The i3 does not from what I have read, but it does offer an antidote to range anxiety.

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I am an outlier but the reason I view the i3 as superior to Volt relates to my daily commute - 54 miles roundtrip (27 one way). Driving a Volt would mean gasoline usage every day. I have read that some people occasionally hit this distance Ev-only in the Volt but I'm not much of a hypermiler. Plus I have also read that EV range of the Volt is significantly curtailed in winter or with high AC use in the summer. So in my particular circumstance, the Volt would become more of a daily hybrid, rather than a once-in-blue-moon, LA to SF hybrid. Also re: the 2nd ICE car expense for longer trips, that wasn't an issue for me. We were a 2 car household prior to the Leaf and will remain a 2 car household after the Leaf.

evnow said:

Comparing it to the Leaf and the Volt, take out the range extender and you have a premium Leaf range EV with carbon fiber and thermal cooling. Add the range extender and it's a Volt with more than double the EV range.

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Yes without the range extender you have a premium Leaf. The question is whether the premium ride is worth $25K. With the range extender you don't have a Volt with twice the electric range. Because the range extender doesn't put out enough energy to power the i3, the range extender has to be compromised in one of two major ways. It can have either a "limp home" mode, which means it won't come close to matching the performance of the Volt. Or its range extender will be supplemented by the battery at the cost of a significantly reduced electric range (the range extender will have to kick in long before the battery is exhausted in order to supply the extra kWh needed for full performance).

If the car looked cool then maybe it would be worth it. Even if the article is wrong, and the i3 doesn't like a Pontiac Aztek, it definitely doesn't shine in the styling department.

Boomer23 said:

Let's keep the price comparisons apples-to-apples. The base i3 is a touch over $42k and comes quite well equipped. The Spark is tiny and cheap feeling by comparison, and the price difference is more like $17k. Not chump change, to be sure, but not $30k. And the Fiat is also a tiny 2 door with awful torque steer, at least the one I drove, and it's slow by comparison.

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You can get a Spark for $27K. I don't think you can spend more than that. On the other hand, it should be quite easy to pay $57K for a i3.

Since 80% of EVs are being leased, more relevant than MSRP are leasing rates. By the time the i3 shows up the Spark EV will probably be leasing for $175/month. The Leaf doesn't cost much more, and you can lease a Volt for $250/month. Because of its high cost, the i3 will lease for something closer to $500/month (the UK deal is $565/month with $4550 down and includes a larger tax credit than you'd have stateside). That's a big difference for a car that simply doesn't have a WOW factor.

SanDust said:

Because the range extender doesn't put out enough energy to power the i3, the range extender has to be compromised in one of two major ways. It can have either a "limp home" mode, which means it won't come close to matching the performance of the Volt. Or its range extender will be supplemented by the battery at the cost of a significantly reduced electric range (the range extender will have to kick in long before the battery is exhausted in order to supply the extra kWh needed for full performance).

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I think there could be a misunderstanding about the operation of the REx. It's common to see this being raised, and not surprising. That said, driving an EV in urban environments typically requires much less than 25 kW of instantaneous power. If your idea of urban driving is barreling down the 405 at 75 mph all the time, then yes, this power level will be required. But even then, there will be moments where the traffic is congested or you are going down a hill. This is when the REx could charge up the battery to ensure that it had enough SOC to help offset high instantaneous demand on the next hill climb.

The point is that when you look at two hours worth of urban driving, the total energy consumption will be almost always less than 50 kWh, sometimes even dramatically less. This is the energy the little scooter engine, which has been derated from 60 to 34 hp, can supply. The key here is that the battery and the REx must be allowed to complement each other, and operate in a blended mode, unlike what we have been accustomed to with the Volt. Yes, there are limits to this approach as well, and it's only fair to point that out. That said, there is every indication that the REx has been implemented in an intelligent way, and that it will provide a satisfying driving experience.

SanDust said:

the UK deal is $565/month with $4550 down and includes a larger tax credit than you'd have stateside

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That is a horrible deal. The money factor must be astronomical.

Ok, more bad news for BMW. It must be their worst nightmare to have one of their cars and the word "Golf Cart" in the same review.

after briefly driving the i3 at BMW's Maisach Driver Academy, I have to take out my fine-tipped marker and add a small detail to that image. Right at the spot around which this whole galaxy of ideas revolves, I'd draw a small circle and fill it in with a black scribble. It's a black hole, precisely where BMW needed a nice dose of its behind-the-wheel driving sizzle.
Golf cart.

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http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1307_2014_bmw_i3_first_drive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit: I just realized this is an old article. Still...bad news none the less. The big selling point of any BMW is the driving experience, and if they missed it here, it will be disastrous for sales.

surfingslovak said:

I think there could be a misunderstanding about the operation of the REx. It's common to see this being raised, and not surprising. That said, driving an EV in urban environments typically requires much less than 25 kW of instantaneous power. If your idea of urban driving is barreling down the 405 at 75 mph all the time, then yes, this power level will be required. But even then, there will be moments where the traffic is congested or you are going down a hill. This is when the REx could charge up the battery to ensure that it had enough SOC to help offset high instantaneous demand on the next hill climb.

The point is that when you look at two hours worth of urban driving, the total energy consumption will be almost always less than 50 kWh, sometimes even dramatically less. This is the energy the little scooter engine, which has been derated from 60 to 34 hp, can supply. The key here is that the battery and the REx must be allowed to complement each other, and operate in a blended mode, unlike what we have been accustomed to with the Volt. Yes, there are limits to this approach as well, and it's only fair to point that out. That said, there is every indication that the REx has been implemented in an intelligent way, and that it will provide a satisfying driving experience.

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I don't think I'm misunderstanding the REx because I haven't seen anything which would allow me to understand it in the first instance. However, I don't need to know anything about it to know what I've said is correct. If you have an extender that can't give you full performance, then you either have to use some of the battery to support the extender or you have to accept less than full performance. It could be both but it has to be at least one of two.

I'm unsure what point you're making about the urban drive cycle. You say that the urban drive cycle won't use more than 50 kW. The REx can provide 26.5 kWh. Where does the other 23.5 kW come from? Obviously the battery. You seem to be suggesting that the REx can charge the battery, but the problem is that you don't know when the driver will need the 50 kW. You can't assume that the demand for 50 kW will occur after the REx has run for X period of time. It could happen right as the battery is depleted. Customers are going to want the same performance before and after the REx engages, and, since you don't know what their driving will be like when that happens, you have to provide enough battery to cover the eventuality that the drive cycle demanding more than 34 hp even on average. Having the car go into limp mode when you press hard on the accelerator or when coming home up a steep grade is not going to cut it for a car that cost $50K.

I don't think the i3 will be an urban car. Too many issues with charging availability in condos and apartments. EVs are are way more suburban than urban, and I can't see the i3 changing this. The i3 will face more US06 Drive Cycles than City Cycles.

I'm puzzled by what you're saying about a "blended" mode. The Volt uses a blended mode. The extender kicks on and off depending on several factors including speed and the battery SOC. From what you're saying the i3 will be more a straight serial, with the extender running flat out once engaged. Or maybe that's just my interpretation of what you're saying.

SanDust said:

I'm puzzled by what you're saying about a "blended" mode. The Volt uses a blended mode. The extender kicks on and off depending on several factors including speed and the battery SOC. From what you're saying the i3 will be more a straight serial, with the extender running flat out once engaged. Or maybe that's just my interpretation of what you're saying.

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I think the misunderstanding continues, which is unfortunate, and I don't have that much time to get into another academic debate. In the end, most people believe whatever they want to believe. Suffice it to say that Tom spoke to several BMW representatives at the unveiling and they were surprised to hear about these persistent limp-mode rumors. Time will tell, and there should be some real-world road reports in the coming months.

Dear BMW,

Instead of paying about $2,000 for a Frankenplug port with no place to plug in, I'll happily pay more than that to use the Tesla Supercharger network.

Elon Musk works in Hawthorne, California, and would love to hear from you about this issue. Since Tesla uses the same communication protocol as Frankenplug, please throw in a $250 pass through adaptor and a big fat check to Tesla for each car you deliver to the USA market, and we're in business.

No reengineering required. Just a simple contract with Tesla. Here's your moment to set the world on fire, and it's easy to do. You can tell your cronies at GM that you're still in the Frankenplug club (wink, wink).

Then, I can buy your car and the upcoming CHAdeMO to Tesla adaptor and charge anywhere in the USA that has a DC quick charger.

Gee, that was easy!

Thanks,

Hugs and kisses,

Tony EV Consumer