2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

with my numbers bouncing all over the place, its hard to nail an exact figure and that issue is aggravated by the fact that my numbers started out higher than most here but when new....

I was seeing 67.36 ahr and 22.7 kwh available with 284 GIDs. you can read my signature to see the range of what I am seeing now. GID counts bounce around the most but still see 284 occasionally

LeftieBiker said:

The thing about my car is it charged to 80% for more than a year, then started stopping at 79%. That still sounds to me like degradation.

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My own two cents is that the charge capacity limit is decreased when ambient temperatures are colder. You and I have cars with similar build dates. In Vermont, on the other side of the pond, I have seen 80% charges in "Winter" frequently 79%. I agree with you that any degradation you and I might have seen is from that first summer in 2013 when temps were up around 90 nearly two weeks. I still think you and I are well ahead of the degradation model curve though...

Very little degradation. See sig

Mottyski82 said:

LeftieBiker said:

The thing about my car is it charged to 80% for more than a year, then started stopping at 79%. That still sounds to me like degradation.

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My own two cents is that the charge capacity limit is decreased when ambient temperatures are colder. You and I have cars with similar build dates. In Vermont, on the other side of the pond, I have seen 80% charges in "Winter" frequently 79%. I agree with you that any degradation you and I might have seen is from that first summer in 2013 when temps were up around 90 nearly two weeks. I still think you and I are well ahead of the degradation model curve though...

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Mine charges to 79% in all temps and seasons, now. The only time it charges to 80% is when the charge timer restarts (it's set to always be on) while the car is plugged in but charged at 8:00am and the car then 'tops off' to 80%.

From GID readings and Amp Hr readings, I'm seeing about 8.5% degradation after 17 months and 14,500 miles, including two summers, in coastal Southern California. Here is some data:

2013 LEAF SL placed in service June 15, 2013

Highest GID reading 284 and Amp Hr reading 65.33 at 100% charge on June 27, 2013

Most recent highest GID reading 259 and Amp Hr reading 59.76 at 100% charge on Nov 22, 2014

GID current percent of new car reading: 91.47%

Amp Hr current percent of new car reading: 91.2%

Interesting note:
The recent highest GID reading of 259 was only reached after four successive 100% overnight charges. The first two of these 100% charges gave GID readings of 252 and 251 GIDs. So if I hadn't continued the 100% charging, I would have used the 252 reading and reached the conclusion that I had lost 7 more GIDs than I really have lost.

Boomer23 said:

From GID readings and Amp Hr readings, I'm seeing about 8.5% degradation after 17 months and 14,500 miles, including two summers, in coastal Southern California. Here is some data:

2013 LEAF SL placed in service June 15, 2013

Highest GID reading 284 and Amp Hr reading 65.33 at 100% charge on June 27, 2013

Most recent highest GID reading 259 and Amp Hr reading 59.76 at 100% charge on Nov 22, 2014

GID current percent of new car reading: 91.47%

Amp Hr current percent of new car reading: 91.2%

Interesting note:
The recent highest GID reading of 259 was only reached after four successive 100% overnight charges. The first two of these 100% charges gave GID readings of 252 and 251 GIDs. So if I hadn't continued the 100% charging, I would have used the 252 reading and reached the conclusion that I had lost 7 more GIDs than I really have lost.

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your losses seem extreme at least to me but it is 2 Summers. Would say your pack is better than previous or about the same?

As far as your rising battery stats; your LEAF seems to thrive on constant use and the higher numbers might just be better top end balancing

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/06/exercise-your-leaf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/09/manipulating-battery-stats.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First stats available for actual initial capacity and degradation rates for 2013 LEAFs:

Initial capacity (tested at ~500 miles) ranging from 23.6 to 24.6 kWh, averaging 24.2.

Degradation after ~4k miles and 3-4 months, January to May (apparently) in Phoenix AZ.

0.8 kWh (~3%) average actual capacity loss (from 0.6 to 1.0 kWh loss, 23.1 to 23.6 remaining) to 23.4 kWh average.

The fourth 2013 tested, which has only 20.8 capacity at its initial test after 6,258 miles is a mystery to me.

It has a much lower serial #, but age alone (unless driven hard during the previous Phoenix Summer?) would not seem to explain the much lower kWh.

Any one know the build date for 1N4AZ0CP0DC405045?

I guess the good news is that that 23.4 average kWh remaining for the other three, after considerable time and miles driven, is the same 23.4 kWh that the AVTA tests found average "new" capacity for its four car sample of 2012 LEAFs.

All links here:

AVTA capacity/range/efficiency tests of four 2013 LEAFs

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA said:

Boomer23 said:

From GID readings and Amp Hr readings, I'm seeing about 8.5% degradation after 17 months and 14,500 miles, including two summers, in coastal Southern California. Here is some data:

2013 LEAF SL placed in service June 15, 2013

Highest GID reading 284 and Amp Hr reading 65.33 at 100% charge on June 27, 2013

Most recent highest GID reading 259 and Amp Hr reading 59.76 at 100% charge on Nov 22, 2014

GID current percent of new car reading: 91.47%

Amp Hr current percent of new car reading: 91.2%

Interesting note:
The recent highest GID reading of 259 was only reached after four successive 100% overnight charges. The first two of these 100% charges gave GID readings of 252 and 251 GIDs. So if I hadn't continued the 100% charging, I would have used the 252 reading and reached the conclusion that I had lost 7 more GIDs than I really have lost.

Click to expand...

your losses seem extreme at least to me but it is 2 Summers. Would say your pack is better than previous or about the same?

As far as your rising battery stats; your LEAF seems to thrive on constant use and the higher numbers might just be better top end balancing

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/06/exercise-your-leaf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/09/manipulating-battery-stats.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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My loss estimate might be high because I only saw that high GID reading of 284 once. Readings in the mid-270s were more common when the car was new. The real proof of the pudding will come when I do a driving range test to Turtle and measure the kWh required to recharge to 100%. I'll probably do that next Spring when temps reliably warm into the 70s early in the AM when freeway traffic is light.

I haven't heard of anyone w/a '13 or '14 Leaf losing a capacity bar yet, I don't think. I quickly scanned http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_one_battery_capacity_bar_.2815.25.29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and didn't notice any w/a manufacture date corresponding to MY '13 or '14 yet. I and many others have observed that the '13 batteries seem to be holding up better from a capacity POV.

If any '13 or '14 Leafs lose capacity bars, please post them here and add them to the wiki.

I figure it's better here than in the 721+ page thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

We'll eventually need another for the "lizard" batteries that came w/the '15.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16467" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

keydiver said:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16467

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Woah. Thanks. I totally forgot about that from over a year ago.

Unfortunately, that person hasn't been back this year.

I wonder if his was a fluke. My '13 Leaf SV (2-year lease began end of July 2013) is at 20.3K miles and still has all its capacity bars. I'm hoping for a positive outcome to my CVRP appeal so that it makes sense for me to extend my lease for another year.

My battery doesn't sit at 100% for long, often is charged to only 80% and on weekends, is often sitting at declining levels of SoC. On weekdays, the car arrives home at night and sits until the morning at usually between 50% to low 80s% SoC.

There have been very few anecdotal reports of 2013's with capacity loss. The battery was completely redesigned for 2013, but Nissan never specifically mentioned that it would be more heat resistant. And since we don't have any statistical data all we can really go off of are the anecdotes around here. However, keeping that in mind many 2013 models are over 2 years old now. 2 years after the 2011 was on the market, there were lots of people complaining about capacity loss. So it certainly seems the 2013's are going to be more reliable. That may also explain why Nissan has been trying to increase sales. Maybe they were aware the 2011/2012 models were having issues so they were content with smaller numbers of sales.

adric22 said:

There have been very few anecdotal reports of 2013's with capacity loss. The battery was completely redesigned for 2013, but Nissan never specifically mentioned that it would be more heat resistant. And since we don't have any statistical data all we can really go off of are the anecdotes around here. However, keeping that in mind many 2013 models are over 2 years old now. 2 years after the 2011 was on the market, there were lots of people complaining about capacity loss.

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It seemed like most of the bloodbath of capacity bar losers on '11 Leafs began once the vehicles entered their 2nd summer but before the 2 year mark. The Phoenix range test (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false was done when the Leaf had been on the market for ~21 months, and one of those cars was a 4-bar loser.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was Tony's chronology, but I noticed what looks like a bad/dupe link for the April 2012 entry (vs. Nov 2011).

Presumably, many '13 Leafs have passed thru 2 summers, like mine, except I live in a more mild climate.

LEAFfan said:

My 2013 was made in Jan., was already down 4-5% capacity when leased, and lost its first CB at 10 mos./8000 miles/ 54.9 AH. However, it was 15% loss, but now is at 86% capacity.

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This was from the same thread that was quoted above.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16467&start=20#p370953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the compilations, so far.

From http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, it looks like they started showing up to dealers around Feb 2013, whereas the 1st (MY '11) was deliver Dec 11, 2010 (http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/13/worlds-first-nissan-leaf-delivered-its-black-like-the-futu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

I've had my 2013 SV for about six weeks. It was a lease return with just over 18k miles, and spent the first two summers in Georgia. LeafSpy shows the Health reading at 89%.

Not a loser but a data point

24k miles. Purchased 3/13 - first batch of 2013 when west coast didn't have any yet

I tried to be really good the second summer after I learned more. Mostly parking in shade in the summer when I was going to be at one location all day. I also cool the garage a bit.

And then typically use 80% with an end charger setting. No QC port.

I always try to post on these discussions since I have a very early 2013 and drive a decent amount and live in the South (although nowhere near a hot climate).

cwerdna said:

Presumably, many '13 Leafs have passed thru 2 summers, like mine, except I live in a more mild climate.

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I think this is the key point. In 2012, the ONLY LEAFs losing capacity bars were in AZ, CA and TX, with most being in AZ. Those three states which have some very hot areas were chosen by Nissan as three of the seven states where you could buy a LEAF before the summer of 2011. Unfortunately, August 2011 was the hottest August on record in Phoenix with seven days setting record high temperatures for that day.

OTOH, June, 2013, was the second-hottest June on record in Phoenix. But by then, the issues with the LEAF's battery in the AZ heat had been on the local TV news in Phoenix, so I wonder if both the dealers and the customers had lost their taste for the LEAF in those areas. I'm sure there were still some sales in those hot areas, but I doubt there were as many as in 2011 and I doubt they were the types to flock to this forum like many from 2011.

We have ONE pair of datapoints from an owner in Phoenix who bought both a 2011 AND a 2013:

2011: Mfd: ?, Bought: June 2011, Bar lost: Did he ever lose a capacity bar before trading the 2011 in in Feb 2013? I cannot find a report on Wiki or in the forum.
2013: Mfd: Jan 2013, Leased: Feb 2013, Bar lost: Jan 2014

But it is possible that something was amiss with the battery in his 2013, seeing as it was one of the very first off the production line.

So we have two reports of 2013s losing a capacity bar in only one summer, but not much beyond that. This summer will be the third for some of the 2013s and the second for the rest. Perhaps we will learn more this year.

I suggest, again, that anyone trying to monitor the actual battery capacity loss, of any LEAF from any MY, DO NOT rely on the LBC.

It is becoming clear that either there was a dramatic improvement in battery design ~with the 2013 MY, or (far more likely, IMO) the LBC was simply altered to report higher gids, and fewer capacity bar losses.

I wonder how long after (or before?) Andy Palmer was harangued by irate-gid-meter-wielding-LEAF-drivers in Phoenix in 2012, that the changes were made?

Given the performance noted below, You have to wonder if the Pessimistic Gauges, may now be overly optimistic...

Busy Wizzy Hits 100,000 Mile Landmark

The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*.

‘Wizzy' as it was named by St Austell-based operators C&C Taxis, hit the milestone in the course of more than 25,000 pure electric paying fares and having been rapid charged over 1,700 times.

The distance it's covered since entering service in July 2013 is equivalent to 100 round trips from the company's base in Cornwall to Glasgow, more than four times around the world or almost half the distance to the moon.

But, despite living the same punishing life as any modern day taxi, Wizzy retains near full battery health and, incredibly, is still on its first set of brake pads...

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http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=132843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am more impressed he is still on his original brake pads.