alozzy
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Sat May 04, 2019 12:19 pm

Mux has made a canbus bridge that makes it possible to put a larger pack in the Leaf and have the BMS and VCM see all the capacity.

It sure would be nice if he would sell his canbus bridge on Amazon, but I'm guessing he wants to keep that intellectual property for his own battery upgrade business.
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peted
Posts: 9
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Leaf Number: 404867
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 9:28 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:It looks like it will be possible to install 30kwh packs in older Leafs, so with age weeding out the defective and weaker packs (or at least revealing them), that should be an option for another 5-7 years.
I have read this entire thread (all 38 pages!) with interest, as our 2013 LEAF's battery is deteriorating suddenly, after five solid years of no significant degradation.

I blame, at least in part, our upgrade to the 3G radio last year, as that resulted in our 12V battery running down periodically. Since it was apparently happening only when we charged to 100%, the dealer asked us to do that more often as a way of trying to reproduce and help diagnose the problem. Naturally, it didn't get them any closer to actually fixing the problem, but we did notice the loss of the first bar of capacity during that time. Almost a year later, we've lost the second.

Of course, I'm sure at least to some extent, the age of the car is just catching up to us.

Range is noticeably reduced, which of course is an ugly cycle. With less capacity, the battery gets closer to minimum charge more often, and starting trips with 100% charge is required more often, both of which age the battery more quickly. :( Sigh...

Anyway, we contacted the local dealer to see what our options are, and according to them, we have exactly one: pay nearly $9000 for a new 30 kWh battery. Ouch!

(Caveat: I'm not the one who actually made the inquiry, and so I don't at the moment have details such as whether that price includes labor, and/or whether it takes into account any offsetting amount for the exchange of the battery that's in the car now.)

I cannot vouch for the reliability of the information the dealer provided us, but I can at least confirm that not only is it the case according to them that one can put a 30 kWh battery into a 2013 LEAF, at this time that is the only option available through Nissan.


As for all the comments about whether this makes sense for Nissan to do or not: no one ever accused any big corporation of having much common sense. There are usually far too many layers between the people who know a good idea when it bites them on the ass, and the people who make the actual decisions, for corporations to generally choose wisely when it comes to long-term decision making.

But, I consider it patently obvious that Nissan should be doing everything they can to make sure their battery replacements are affordable, especially for the early model cars. The idea that cheaper batteries would cannibalize current and future sales is ridiculous. First of all, there just aren't enough of the early model cars around for that to be significant. A serious car manufacturer is selling millions of vehicles per year; accommodating a few tens of thousands of owners per year isn't going to make a difference.

Secondly though, the idea of cannibalizing current and future sales only makes sense if there are sales to be had. Eliminating sales by shoving what would otherwise be a loyal customer over to other manufacturers, that will do far more to harm sales than letting a few more of the older cars stay on the road.

Now, I'm not saying that Nissan understands any of this, nor that their motivation isn't exactly based on a completely misunderstanding of this. Just that it wouldn't be logical for them to take that view.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 9:41 pm

Interesting about the 30kwh pack being the only option now. It makes sense, as they seem to have stopped producing 24kwh packs sometime in 2016, and maybe even in 2015. That makes any remaining NOS (new old stock) 24kwh packs 3-4 years old now.

As for the apparent sudden range loss with your car: that seems to happen to many Leaf drivers as the capacity drops below 89% or so. I don't know how much is an actual quick drop, and how much is just a case of suddenly noticing the existing loss, but the phenomenon is common.
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Valdemar
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 10:15 pm

There have been some info along the way that Nissan didn't stock new batteries to avoid calendar capacity losses in storage. They made as few as possible to satisfy the demand for replacements. But who knows, perhaps this all changed.
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Titanium48
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 10:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Interesting about the 30kwh pack being the only option now. It makes sense, as they seem to have stopped producing 24kwh packs sometime in 2016, and maybe even in 2015. That makes any remaining NOS (new old stock) 24kwh packs 3-4 years old now.
If this is true it begs the question of how much longer the 30 kWh packs will be available, as they are no longer used in new Leafs either. Is there a $10k 40 kWh upgrade on the horizon? What will be used for warranty replacements on 2016 and 2017 cars 4-5 years from now?
2016 SL

LeftieBiker
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 10:47 pm

All good questions.
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cwerdna
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 10:49 pm

peted wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:It looks like it will be possible to install 30kwh packs in older Leafs, so with age weeding out the defective and weaker packs (or at least revealing them), that should be an option for another 5-7 years.
I have read this entire thread (all 38 pages!) with interest, as our 2013 LEAF's battery is deteriorating suddenly, after five solid years of no significant degradation.
...
Anyway, we contacted the local dealer to see what our options are, and according to them, we have exactly one: pay nearly $9000 for a new 30 kWh battery. Ouch!

(Caveat: I'm not the one who actually made the inquiry, and so I don't at the moment have details such as whether that price includes labor, and/or whether it takes into account any offsetting amount for the exchange of the battery that's in the car now.)

I cannot vouch for the reliability of the information the dealer provided us, but I can at least confirm that not only is it the case according to them that one can put a 30 kWh battery into a 2013 LEAF, at this time that is the only option available through Nissan.
I wouldn't be surprised if the above dealer is yet another one of those who doesn't know what they're talking about, unless something has changed (a possibility) between Jan 22, 2019 (below) and today.

24 vs 30 kWh pack discussion has come up numerous times on many Leaf FB groups, a well-known Pacific NW Leaf tech posted the part numbers for the various pack variants at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater on Jan 22, 2019. It was part of this thread: https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 6843750073.
Last edited by cwerdna on Tue May 07, 2019 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lothsahn
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Mon May 06, 2019 11:28 pm

SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
SageBrush wrote: That is a guess on your part. If true then the range will be that of a 30 kWh battery even if the range meter only accounts for the first 24 kWh.

Seems easy enough to check. It would also be easy to use since the actual range would be ~ 1.25x of displayed.
No extra range. There is a slight voltage difference that "may" account for part of the issue but right now you simply end up with a more robust 24 kwh pack.
Yep -- Leftie convinced me although his phrasing is misleading. It is not a case that unused modules come into play as the first 24 kWh degrades but rather that a 40 kWh pack still has 24 kWh of usable capacity even after significant (40%) degradation. Since 24 kWh is the usable maximum it gives the appearance of a reserve keeping the pack at 24 kWh for a decade or so in non-hot climates.

If I can buy that kind of pack in the next couple of years installed for under $5k I'll be one happy camper indeed.
I want to clear something up. If you take a 24kWh BMS and put in 30 kWh cells, the car will show VLBW after around 15kWh. It will then drive at VLBW (---) for the second half of the battery before turtle.

This is not a "robust" battery. <INCORRECT>In fact, the BMS may actually slightly overcharge the cells.</INCORRECT>

I will get the graphs in the next 2 days and if I'm wrong, I will eat crow. But I want to warn anyone who thinks they can just cell swap 30 or 40 kWh cells that it won't work the way you want it to. It will not create a 24kWh "reserve" pack.

The 30->40 conversion that bkvs did is different. The cell voltages are very similar or identical between the 30 & 40 cells, but the BMS appears to be limiting the discharge down to 0 for some unknown reason. This is causing loss of 25% of the pack. In this case, the pack should be more robust because it will have a smaller DOD and a slightly lower charged voltage.


(Edited to show the statement that the BMS overcharging the cells is incorrect. The 24 kWh BMS will NOT overcharge the 30 & 40 cells)
Last edited by Lothsahn on Tue May 07, 2019 6:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 12:10 am

I was originally going by the post below, in which a Russian claims, in a video, to have swapped a 30kwh pack into a 24kwh Leaf - he claims it didn't work initially, but then did work when the 30kwh controller (I assume the LBC) was swapped as well. After that I think I got turned around by the discussion of the 40 to 30 swap. I apologize for the confusion. It should be noted, though, that using 30kwh packs in 24kwh Leafs does seem to be possible, with the bonus of getting to use the extra capacity.

First post on this page:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 31#p540231
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SageBrush
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Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Tue May 07, 2019 4:57 am

Lothsahn wrote: I want to clear something up. If you take a 24kWh BMS and put in 30 kWh cells, the car will show VLBW after around 15kWh. It will then drive at VLBW (---) for the second half of the battery before turtle.

This is not a "robust" battery. In fact, the BMS may actually slightly overcharge the cells.
I am under the impression that the opposite holds -- that the BMS at '100% SoC' has only charged the cells up to 3.95 V or thereabouts.

May be wrong of course -- my opinion is 3rd hand after someone translated from Russian.
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