Comparison of LEAF Battery Modules over the years

Here is a comparison of the LEAF battery pack modules over the years.

The top module is the one that is in the 2011 ~ 2012 battery packs. Notice that it is a sealed container which was a factor in the rapid degradation of the early packs.

The middle module is the one that is in the 2013 ~2016 24kWh battery packs. Notice that this module is open which allows for better convection circulation.

The bottom module is the one that is in the 2016 30kWh battery packs. Notice that it has 8 cells.

Both the middle and bottom module images are of cutaway models.

Sorry to say they are not more durable in the hot Arizona climate. Thanks for showing us the modules!

OrientExpress said:

The top module is the one that is in the 2011 ~ 2012 battery packs. Notice that it is a sealed container which was a factor in the rapid degradation of the early packs.

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Well, it can't be a very important factor, since there are reports that the "Lizard" battery is degrading just as fast in the heat as the original.

Might not be any better in relatively mild SoCal climates either.

plenty of reports on battery packs in new cars holding up well

it just the replacement battery packs that seem questionable

ydnas7 said:

plenty of reports on battery packs in new cars holding up well

it just the replacement battery packs that seem questionable

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I do not agree with that statement, especially in hotter climates. The lawsuit that was won in favor of consumers states that it must the same or better tech than 2015 lizard. But I believe the overall energy density of the new 2015 battery (as replacements and new) is about 7%ish more than an (original) 2011-2012 battery pack.

Evoforce said:

I do not agree with that statement, especially in hotter climates. The lawsuit that was won in favor of consumers states that it must the same or better tech than 2015 lizard. But I believe the overall energy density of the new 2015 battery (as replacements and new) is about 7%ish more than an (original) 2011-2012 battery pack.

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Remember how I've said all along that I thought there was a software problem with the early cars that lead to them presenting with premature degradation? I still haven't completely given up on that theory.

While it must be said that it's only been a month, things with my car do not look particularly promising. Certainly there are no environmental conditions that would encourage degradation right now, and with the exception of avoiding spirited driving (my energy economy is still under 3 miles per kWh) I'm otherwise trying my very best to baby the pack - almost completely avoiding charging to 100%; trying not to let charge get below 30%; and trying to not charge when the pack is already "hot".

That said, I've only had one occasion where a 100% charge has been necessary thus far, and the colder weather could be inhibiting charging to maximum capacity, so we'll really have to give it a few months and see what develops.

mwalsh said:

While it must be said that it's only been a month, things with my car do not look particularly promising. Certainly there are no environmental conditions that would encourage degradation right now, and with the exception of avoiding spirited driving (my energy economy is still under 3 miles per kWh) I'm otherwise trying my very best to baby the pack - almost completely avoiding charging to 100%; trying not to let charge get below 30%; and trying to not charge when the pack is already "hot".

That said, I've only had one occasion where a 100% charge has been necessary thus far, and the colder weather could be inhibiting charging to maximum capacity, so we'll really have to give it a few months and see what develops.

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From looking at the current forecast at https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/92840:4:US vs. https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/95120:4:US, your area is certainly much hotter than mine. Your high temps are about 10 F higher than mine. Highs of 85 to 87 on some days in Feb? That's pretty hot for Feb, in my book.

And, I'm sure you've noticed that highway driving does heat up the battery, as does charging.

After I got Leaf Spy and could monitor battery temps, I'm now leaving the Leaf parked outside when I arrive home from work for a few hours to let the battery cool down more quickly since at night, my garage is definitely warmer (per thermometer) than it is outside. When I had a leased Leaf, I had no means to monitor temps until near the end and I just parked it in my garage.

^ We can have some warm weather in winter, and the next few days will be quite warm (though probably not record highs), but we didn't have any weather like that since my pack arrived - the highest temps we had last month were one day at 79 degrees and one day at 77 degrees, the rest were all low 70s or cooler:

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/garden-grove-ca/92843/january-weather/332132?monyr=1/1/2016

My battery pack that was replaced with new lizard 13.5 months ago, showed 100% SOH for over 6 months then started dropping like a rock ending up with an 11% loss over 12 months. It has lost another 1% this last month. I am tracking to have a first bar loss around April-May if first bar loss is around 85% SOH.

Evoforce said:

My battery pack that was replaced with new lizard 13.5 months ago, showed 100% SOH for over 6 months then started dropping like a rock ending up with an 11% loss over 12 months. It has lost another 1% this last month. I am tracking to have a first bar loss around April-May if first bar loss is around 85% SOH.

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No loss for 6 months followed by steady losses is enough to make one think they snuck extra 'hidden' capacity into the pack to absorb early losses.

If the Lizard chemistry isn't better by any measurable degree then the LEAF will become a permanently tainted vehicle. I wonder if the IDS 200 mile concept car will actually be called a LEAF or if they will come up with a new name and new image.

JPWhite said:

Evoforce said:

My battery pack that was replaced with new lizard 13.5 months ago, showed 100% SOH for over 6 months then started dropping like a rock ending up with an 11% loss over 12 months. It has lost another 1% this last month. I am tracking to have a first bar loss around April-May if first bar loss is around 85% SOH.

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No loss for 6 months followed by steady losses is enough to make one think they snuck extra 'hidden' capacity into the pack to absorb early losses.

If the Lizard chemistry isn't better by any measurable degree then the LEAF will become a permanently tainted vehicle. I wonder if the IDS 200 mile concept car will actually be called a LEAF or if they will come up with a new name and new image.

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Another clue is that the 2011 car only charges the battery with a finished charge up to 87-89% (summer) and 90% (winter) as observed by Leafspy when set to charge at 100%. Whereas newer leafs show a finished charge up to mid to high 90's at 100% charge as per Leafspy stats with the same 2015 battery type.

This to me lends credence to the slightly larger actual energy density (2015) as compared to the original 2011. So the approximate 7% surface charge translated to a gain of 10 EPA miles on vehicles after 2011-12. I believe 11-12 were rated EPA 74 miles and 13-15 are rated 84 EPA miles. It also seems that most new lizard batteries are showing around 271ish GIDs when installed in 2011 Leafs but show higher GIDs when installed in 2015 vehicles.

I see no reason why the 30kWh packs will have any better durability with what we know. Lizard batteries were said to have been developed to answer the heat degradation problem in hotter climates but are failing to measure up to the hype. I believe the 30kWh are built to that same failed standard. The 60kWh battery that is going to be released next, also is shown without a thermal management system. If they are also produced to the same standard of the previous batteries they are also doomed to have poor durability. Nissan should have to prove how these batteries will be more durable to it's buying public. Especially those of us that have already put our money into their product.

Again I say, we love our Leafs, but not their battery durability. Please Nissan, fix this problem along with the QC problem at the Dealerships.

Evoforce said:

I see no reason why the 30kWh packs will have any better durability with what we know.

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It seems clear that the 30 kWh packs are built using an NMC cathode, which should have a longer life than the LMO used in the older batteries. That's one reason Nissan can warrant this new battery to have the same capacity as a 12-bar old battery, but after 10 years or 100,000 miles.

Evoforce said:

The 60kWh battery that is going to be released next, also is shown without a thermal management system.

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Thermal management systems for batteries are a crutch which will soon be discarded by all the manufacturers in the automotive industry since they add cost, weight and volume which could better be used for more batteries instead.

Better batteries are the answer, not thermal management systems.

Evoforce said:

This to me lends credence to the slightly larger actual energy density (2015) as compared to the original 2011. So the approximate 7% surface charge translated to a gain of 10 EPA miles on vehicles after 2011-12. I believe 11-12 were rated EPA 74 miles and 13-15 are rated 84 EPA miles.

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the change in EPA rating was due to the elimination of the 80% charge option and the way EPA calculated the range. Testing by Tony Williams showed no improvement in range. It was all smoke and mirrors.

Stoaty said:

Evoforce said:

This to me lends credence to the slightly larger actual energy density (2015) as compared to the original 2011. So the approximate 7% surface charge translated to a gain of 10 EPA miles on vehicles after 2011-12. I believe 11-12 were rated EPA 74 miles and 13-15 are rated 84 EPA miles.

Click to expand...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the change in EPA rating was due to the elimination of the 80% charge option and the way EPA calculated the range. Testing by Tony Williams showed no improvement in range. It was all smoke and mirrors.

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To be fair the heat pump does have a noticeable impact on range. They could have seen better range if they had retained the aluminum body panels. The savings in pack weight were offset by a heavier car.

RegGuheert said:

Evoforce said:

I see no reason why the 30kWh packs will have any better durability with what we know.

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It seems clear that the 30 kWh packs are built using an NMC cathode, which should have a longer life than the LMO used in the older batteries. That's one reason Nissan can warrant this new battery to have the same capacity as a 12-bar old battery, but after 10 years or 100,000 miles.

Evoforce said:

The 60kWh battery that is going to be released next, also is shown without a thermal management system.

Click to expand...

Thermal management systems for batteries are a crutch which will soon be discarded by all the manufacturers in the automotive industry since they add cost, weight and volume which could better be used for more batteries instead.

Better batteries are the answer, not thermal management systems.

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Of course better batteries are needed. But until then, I think maybe there needs to be a crutch. I don't like the prospect of paying for new batteries every 3 years. If you believe those batteries will last 10 years in hot climates, I've got some desert property I can sell you... Remember the warranty is to repair to a minimum of 9 bars for capacity. That in fact is the warranty...

Stoaty said:

Evoforce said:

This to me lends credence to the slightly larger actual energy density (2015) as compared to the original 2011. So the approximate 7% surface charge translated to a gain of 10 EPA miles on vehicles after 2011-12. I believe 11-12 were rated EPA 74 miles and 13-15 are rated 84 EPA miles.

Click to expand...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the change in EPA rating was due to the elimination of the 80% charge option and the way EPA calculated the range. Testing by Tony Williams showed no improvement in range. It was all smoke and mirrors.

Click to expand...

Whether it actually caused an increased in range was not my point and maybe Nissan knew they added more energy density but it didn't add up to more mileage because it was software limited. But they have added a little more energy density to the 15's compared to the 11's and it is not accessible to deplete and they may have done that with the 13-14's as well. I don't believe that I have longer range than the original 2011 batteries had new, comparing with the new 2015 packs that are now in my cars.

Others have suggested that the 13's and newer are holding up better in cooler climates than 11-12's. It may mean that the energy density was increased but not accessible to help not hammer the pack to full charge or discharge. As previously stated my cars with 2015 lizard batteries generally only charge to 87-89% SOC when set to charge to 100%.

I only have others to draw conclusions from, since Nissan is short on providing customers facts. I have not yet formed a solid opinion on whether 11-14's have any advantage (battery wise) to each other.

I can point to the difference of the 2015 lizard batteries though. Nissan also claimed to have developed a more heat tolerant battery to deal with the rapid degradation issue faced with vehicles in hotter climates. It is a failed solution...

Evoforce said:

If you believe those batteries will last 10 years in hot climates, I've got some desert property I can sell you...

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It doesn't matter what I believe, since it is warranted to last that long (or 100,000 miles) by Nissan. If it doesn't last, you get a new one. I DO believe Nissan will last that long.

Evoforce said:

Remember the warranty is to repair to a minimum of 9 bars for capacity. That in fact is the warranty...

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That's right. And, as I said, a 30-kWh battery with 10 bars remaining has as much range as a 12-bar LEAF with all 12 bars still showing.

^^^ Did I miss something and we now know what capacity bars actually mean on a 30kwh Leaf?

Valdemar said:

Did I miss something and we now know what capacity bars actually mean on a 30kwh Leaf?

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“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”