2012 Ford focus electric vs 2012 nissan leaf?

[CRLeafSL]

I understand that the devil is in the details as far as the battery itself allowing the coolant to flow over the cell. That's in my opinion where Nissan screwed up from day one. The battery should have always been set up and accepting coolant over all the cells. Instead the idiots decided to go air cooled. Really? When is the last time you saw even a motorcycle that used to be air cooled for years be air cooled today? Most motorcycles are liquid cooled (have a radiator). Geez I wonder why. NOTHING should ever be air cooled period. The leaf should have never been designed to be air cooled, ever. Adding the tubing to the battery is the easy part, but now that they Majorly screwed up on the battery, it would require a complete redesign which is why I'm saying goodbye to Nissan until they get their head out of their As*** and design the battery correctly by putting a TMS on it.

 

[knightmb]

I understand that the devil is in the details as far as the battery itself allowing the coolant to flow over the cell. That's in my opinion where Nissan screwed up from day one. The battery should have always been set up and accepting coolant over all the cells. Instead the idiots decided to go air cooled. Really? When is the last time you saw even a motorcycle that used to be air cooled for years be air cooled today? Most motorcycles are liquid cooled (have a radiator). Geez I wonder why. NOTHING should ever be air cooled period. The leaf should have never been designed to be air cooled, ever. Adding the tubing to the battery is the easy part, but now that they Majorly screwed up on the battery, it would require a complete redesign which is why I'm saying goodbye to Nissan until they get their head out of their As*** and design the battery correctly by putting a TMS on it.

That's not a fair statement though, the technology is very different for an EV vs. ICE. If batteries existed (for the EV that is, excluding space/industrial use) that could operate up to 200F without even a hiccup in power or service life, no one would blink an eye at "cooling" the battery. I think that is what Nissan is trying to do, at least with the nicknamed "lizard" packs they use now. If the lizard packs turn out to be the right direction for the technology then people would complain that Nissan wasted time and resources to create cooling for something that was not needed. I would love to see advancements for EV batteries in which the more mechanical / complicated systems are removed, the more reliable it can *become*. Even the Volt has gotten bad press due to crash test that damaged the battery cooling system and setting the vehicle on fire. Even though it was weeks later when it happened after the test.

 

[TomT]

Both of you are essentially incorrect. The Leaf battery is not air cooled. It is in a sealed pack that slowly adapts to the ambient temperature. It has no cooling at all, per se.
And the Volt fire was a result of a very unusual set of circumstances that are not likely to happen in the real world, plus, GM immediately made a change t insure it could not happen at all.

The perfect situation would be a battery that both performed and lasted extremely well at both high and low temperatures, and also had very high energy density, but we are a long way from that point currently... Only then would TMS no longer be an issue...

The battery should have always been set up and accepting coolant over all the cells. Instead the idiots decided to go air cooled.

Even the Volt has gotten bad press due to crash test that damaged the battery cooling system and setting the vehicle on fire. Even though it was weeks later when it happened after the test.

 

[adric22]

I understand that the devil is in the details as far as the battery itself allowing the coolant to flow over the cell. That's in my opinion where Nissan screwed up from day one. The battery should have always been set up and accepting coolant over all the cells. Instead the idiots decided to go air cooled. Really? When is the last time you saw even a motorcycle that used to be air cooled for years be air cooled today? Most motorcycles are liquid cooled (have a radiator). Geez I wonder why. NOTHING should ever be air cooled period.

Uh. I have to nitpick a few things here. First of all, the amount of heat generated by a motorcycle engine is an order of magnitude higher than the heat generated by a battery. Second thing. The Leaf's battery is not "air cooled." In fact, it is not cooled at all. The chemistry they used was supposed to NOT require any cooling. That turned out not to be true for the 2011/2012 models. It remains to be seen how the 2013/2014 and the "lizard" battery of the 2015 hold up without cooling. If it turns out Nissan is correct, you'll be eating some crow in a few years.

Also - The Toyota Prius's battery is air cooled, as are the batteries in the Ford hybrids and Energi models. However, these literally do have a forced-air cooling system that takes cool air from the cabin and blows it through the battery pack.

 

[TimLee]

...
The perfect situation would be a battery that both performed and lasted extremely well at both high and low temperatures, and also had very high energy density, but we are a long way from that point currently... Only then would TMS no longer be an issue...
...

Agree fully.
The shortcoming with the LEAF is one of not achieving the battery capacity degradation rates that Nissan projected.
If they had accomplished those rates or stood behind their projections and covered it with warranty that backed up the projections, then LEAF cost effective design without TMS would not be an issue.
With better battery chemistry and other improvements the Nissan no TMS may yet prove to be the better more cost effective design.
The Nissan deficiency is in not standing behind their design choice but instead dumping it's shortcomings on the users of the vehicle, and basically saying sorry, we always pointed out there were uncertainties.

 

[CRLeafSL]

I understand that the devil is in the details as far as the battery itself allowing the coolant to flow over the cell. That's in my opinion where Nissan screwed up from day one. The battery should have always been set up and accepting coolant over all the cells. Instead the idiots decided to go air cooled. Really? When is the last time you saw even a motorcycle that used to be air cooled for years be air cooled today? Most motorcycles are liquid cooled (have a radiator). Geez I wonder why. NOTHING should ever be air cooled period.

Uh. I have to nitpick a few things here. First of all, the amount of heat generated by a motorcycle engine is an order of magnitude higher than the heat generated by a battery. Second thing. The Leaf's battery is not "air cooled." In fact, it is not cooled at all. The chemistry they used was supposed to NOT require any cooling. That turned out not to be true for the 2011/2012 models. It remains to be seen how the 2013/2014 and the "lizard" battery of the 2015 hold up without cooling. If it turns out Nissan is correct, you'll be eating some crow in a few years.

Also - The Toyota Prius's battery is air cooled, as are the batteries in the Ford hybrids and Energi models. However, these literally do have a forced-air cooling system that takes cool air from the cabin and blows it through the battery pack.

Um I have to totally nitpick back. Again all you guys focus on is the heat issue. Does everyone forget that the earth gets cold? Nissan has not and will not address the range loss for winter conditions. Adding a bigger battery to give you more of a buffer to have more range even during losses in cold weather is NOT the answer. That's why TMS is so crucial. It just amazes me that people automatically assume TMS is only needed in hot climates. I'm not worrying about eating any crow cause NISSAN HAS IT 100% WRONG until they put a TMS on it. I don't care what chemistry they use. IT STILL NEEDS A TMS NO MATTER WHAT. Google Winter if your unfamiliar with what true cold is.

 

[desiv]

Adding a bigger battery to give you more of a buffer to have more range even during losses in cold weather is NOT the answer.

Actually, it still might be the answer..
I agree it might not be the proper answer..
But at least in the computer field, we have frequently seen poorly written applications become perfectly acceptable only because they are on faster hardware with more memory, faster disk, etc...

We might KNOW that the logic and queries should be optimized and that app would work better on any hardware, but once the computer / server can handle it, what's the point...

Now, batteries are a bit too expensive for that to be the right answer for now, but as things improve...

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that becomes a more viable solution than a TMS..
Also, if you factor in possible benefits from reduced complexity of not having to have a TMS, it might even be the right answer..
I'm not an engineer tho, so who knows..

desiv

 

[CRLeafSL]

I promise this will be my last post containing to this topic. At this point, I think we are just beating a dead horse because I don't agree with your views. I personally will never see a benefit or technology better than climate controlling the battery in ALL environments. I just don't see it. I don't care what latest and greatest technology of battery they "think" they have, I still feel it would benefit with being climate controlled. Also since I have the choice of what I want to spend my money on, I will never ever spend a dime on another EV without TMS. I simply won't do it because I'm certain there isn't a better way (that's my opinion, but I'm entitled to my own opinion and spend my money the way I want) and nobody including Engineers will change my mind. Therefore if Nissan wants my business, then they WILL build an EV with TMS or I will never own another EV from Nissan ever again. I will not own another one without TMS, period.

 

[TimLee]

^^With your two year lease you fortunately have only nineteen days left of having to tolerate the LEAF.

I guess you won't be considering a lease extension

And yes, even though where I live usually does not usually get ultra cold, I do understand what winter is and have actually been outside in -24F winter conditions once in my life.

And if you have left your 2011 LEAF that has no battery heater sitting out in those conditions for three days, then it will be a useless paperweight until it warms up by about 20F for three or four days.
Under those conditions it is a very bad design.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I promise this will be my last post containing to this topic. At this point, I think we are just beating a dead horse because I don't agree with your views. I personally will never see a benefit or technology better than climate controlling the battery in ALL environments. I just don't see it. I don't care what latest and greatest technology of battery they "think" they have, I still feel it would benefit with being climate controlled. Also since I have the choice of what I want to spend my money on, I will never ever spend a dime on another EV without TMS. I simply won't do it because I'm certain there isn't a better way (that's my opinion, but I'm entitled to my own opinion and spend my money the way I want) and nobody including Engineers will change my mind. Therefore if Nissan wants my business, then they WILL build an EV with TMS or I will never own another EV from Nissan ever again. I will not own another one without TMS, period.

Confusing a problem with one possible solution that may prove obsolete.
If battery chemistry can handle required temperature extremes without significant degradation, then there is no reason to mandate use of a TMS which is clearly not needed. It's like demanding that a diamond needle be used to play music (on a record player) when everyone moved on to CDs. It's solving a problem that may not exist, IF such temperature tolerant chemistry exists and is used.

The 2013+ LEAF has a battery heater standard for when temperatures get really cold.

Back to the original topic, I personally would not buy a compliance car or one where the manufacturer is not seriously trying to sell it. The Focus seems like a nationally available compliance car. Sold in insignificant quantities and apparently disliked by Ford given how reluctantly they sell it.

 

[WetEV]

Back to the original topic, I personally would not buy a compliance car or one where the manufacturer is not seriously trying to sell it. The Focus seems like a nationally available compliance car. Sold in insignificant quantities and apparently disliked by Ford given how reluctantly they sell it.

I almost agree.

The fact that I can buy one from a local dealer makes it not a compliance car, at least to me. Maybe not much more than that, but that is a big difference, at least to me.

One reason why I didn't buy one was that the Leaf had been out in significant numbers for a year, and the Focus hadn't.

If there wasn't a Leaf, or I lived in Texas (or AZ or ...), I would have bought a Focus. Almost did anyways, but would have waited for a couple of years at minimum, first for the car to be out for a year, then for the "stop safely now" bug to get fixed with a software update.