2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

[DaveinOlyWA]

Add to that the fact that Tesla will soon have real competition for most of their products, and this becomes a major problem.

LOL
Excellent way to end this conversation, with true over promise and under delivery.

Why is this funny? Tesla has undoubtedly already lost sales to Chevy and even Nissan :shock: and that will continue.

 

[SageBrush]

Add to that the fact that Tesla will soon have real competition for most of their products, and this becomes a major problem.

LOL
Excellent way to end this conversation, with true over promise and under delivery.

Why is this funny? Tesla has undoubtedly already lost sales to Chevy and even Nissan :shock: and that will continue.

Which is why Tesla has Model 3 piling up on lots, that no one will buy.

No, wait, never mind. That cannot be right, because the Model 3 is vaporware. Why, the near horizon sales of 5k Model 3 a WEEK is just .... I dunno, ... Tesla sleight of hand ?

Give it a break, folks. You are just making fools of yourselves. Tesla is a juggernaut to be celebrated for being the one and only company that might change the face of road transport in the developed countries this decade. In the meantime try to be useful and convince Nissan to stop treating you like ****.

 

[GRA]

LOL
Excellent way to end this conversation, with true over promise and under delivery.

You don't think Porsche, Audi, Jaguar etc. will have Tesla-competitive BEVs out by the end of 2020, as they've announced? The I-Pace is due to arrive later this year, and customers could place orders starting a couple of months ago. Even if they were to slip until Q1 of 2019, that's still far better than Tesla has managed with any car introduction. In Europe, high-power CCS is being deployed now, and that's starting to happen here as well. Tesla has a lead, but that lead is shrinking, and the legacy car makers know far more about getting a car ready for mass production than Tesla.

Can you REALLY not see your double standard ?

Can YOU really not see the difference between announcing a schedule and whether or not you meet it? If Tesla had announced in 2012 that the Model X would arrive in mid-2015 (or whenever it did show up) instead of late 2013 which is what they announced, I'd have no problem with that. Same goes for every other schedule they've announced; it's their continually busting those schedules that are the problem.

3-4 years in the future for Porsche is "soon" in your eyes,
While months to a year delay for a Tesla product is a matter of deep worry for you.

As above. BTW, by my calendar arrival in 2020 is between 19 and 31 months away, a max. of 2 years 7 months. Both the I-Pace and e-tron Quattro are supposed to appear this year; if either misses that by a substantial amount, you can bet I'll mention it.

I don't know if your fav manufacturers will ever compete with Tesla, but I know this: owning a Gigafactory is a pre-requisite. Until then they may produce 1k - 30k cars a year while Tesla will produce 10k a week. That is not competition.

I don't have 'fav' manufacturers. If a product suits me I'll buy it, but I have no loyalty to brands, and will happily switch to another next time if that suits me better. As to batteries, all the major German manufacturers have been gearing up, e.g.

Volkswagen Invests $25 Billion in Battery Supplies to Bolster EV Agenda
The German automaker will work with LG Chem, Samsung and Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology Co Ltd.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...battery-purchase-electric-vehicles#gs.5K_EAY8

Mercedes-Benz invests $120 million in battery factory to expand electric car effort

https://electrek.co/2018/03/14/mercedes-benz-invest-battery-factory-electric-car/

BMW launches new battery factory in China

https://electrek.co/2017/10/24/bmw-launches-new-battery-factory-china/

Not sure what the situation is with JLR, but they're a low-volume manufacturer in any case.

 

[IssacZachary]

My options for a brand new BEV now (or what will be a used BEV in 3 to 5 years):

• Today: 40kWh Nissan Leaf
  • Pros:
  • Affordable
  • Comfortable
  • Cons:
  • Terrible loss of value
  • Not known for longevity
  • After 8 years the battery replacement price is looking like it will be sky high
  • No TMS so range will be greatly affected by cold and longevity by heat
  • Known for "battery gate" multiple CHAdeMO problem
  • No CHAdeMO charging infrastructure around here anyway. If I want to go to Denver, Santa Fe or Moab, I have to go the entire distance without CHAdeMO, Although that may change in the coming years (or decades).
  • Not as great of a range as others.
• Today: Chevy Bolt
  • Pros:
  • Goes plenty far
  • TMS
  • Cons:
  • Not comfortable
  • A bit too expensive
  • No charging infrastructure around here for this car either
• Today: BMW i3
  • Pros:
  • Good question
  • At least there's a range extender option
  • TMS
  • Cons:
  • A bit too expensive
  • Did I mention there is not DCQC charging infrastructure for these things around here and in most parts of the world?
• In a year, or two years, maybe 3: Tesla M3 Base model
  • Pros:
  • Somewhat affordable
  • TMS
  • Should be comfortable
  • Hey! There is a charging infrastructure that could let me make it to Denver if I wanted to! Or Grand junction, perhaps even Moab!
  • Cons:
  • Won't be available this year for many
  • Oh. The battery is more flammable
• In 4 or 5 years from now, a Porshe or Jag BEV
  • Pros:
  • Ah! Ya! This is deffinitely the future duopoly of BEV's!... in some distant fantasy.
  • Cons:
  • Reality

 

[GRA]

My options for a brand new BEV now (or what will be a used BEV in 3 to 5 years):

<snip>
[*]In 4 or 5 years from now, a Porshe or Jag BEV

• Pros:
• Ah! Ya! This is deffinitely the future duopoly of BEV's!... in some distant fantasy.

• Cons:
• Reality

[/list]

I'm not aware that anyone is suggesting that Porsche or Jaguar BEVs will be mass-market priced cars. What they will be doing is competing against Tesla's high-margin lux performance models like the Model S and X, and maybe higher-end Model 3/Ys. Other companies will be competing against them in lower price segments, although I expect that PHEVs will remain the mass-market choice there at least through 2020 and probably a few years after, depending on battery price reduction and infrastructure deployment rates.

 

[SageBrush]

As to batteries, all the major German manufacturers have been gearing up, e.g.

Volkswagen Invests $25 Billion in Battery Supplies to Bolster EV Agenda
The German automaker will work with LG Chem, Samsung and Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology Co Ltd.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...battery-purchase-electric-vehicles#gs.5K_EAY8

If you would actually read the article rather than jump to fanciful conjecture based on click-bait headlines you might appear less foolish

Volkswagen announced Tuesday that it had secured about $25 billion in battery supplies and technology, a sum it plans to scale up to about $60 billion as it looks to expand electric-vehicle manufacturing.

The German automaker will work with LG Chem, Samsung and Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology Co Ltd, and currently has no plans to start producing battery packs by itself, Reuters reports. At least 10 major battery factories are already in the works around the globe.

In plainer English, WV has an options contract with unknown prices or details for the next decade (or is it two ?)
They are trying the GM Bolt route of assembling and branding an LG vehicle. Have you looked at Bolt costs and marginal losses ?

 

[GRA]

As to batteries, all the major German manufacturers have been gearing up, e.g.

Volkswagen Invests $25 Billion in Battery Supplies to Bolster EV Agenda
The German automaker will work with LG Chem, Samsung and Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology Co Ltd.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...battery-purchase-electric-vehicles#gs.5K_EAY8

If you would actually read the article rather than jump to fanciful conjecture based on click-bait headlines you might appear less foolish

Volkswagen announced Tuesday that it had secured about $25 billion in battery supplies and technology, a sum it plans to scale up to about $60 billion as it looks to expand electric-vehicle manufacturing.

The German automaker will work with LG Chem, Samsung and Chinese battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology Co Ltd, and currently has no plans to start producing battery packs by itself, Reuters reports. At least 10 major battery factories are already in the works around the globe.

In plainer English, WV has an options contract with unknown prices or details for the next decade (or is it two ?)
They are trying the GM Bolt route of assembling and branding an LG vehicle. Have you looked at Bolt costs and marginal losses ?

So what? You don't think VW is a big enough customer to have financial leverage? GM got excellent prices from LG Chem before everyone else (other than Tesla), and VW's worth more than GM. Unlike Tesla, both companies are profitable.

 

[SageBrush]

So what? You don't think VW is a big enough customer to have financial leverage?

I have no idea, but of one thing I am certain: this is not an investment, which was your attempted argument.
And absent direct investment at Tesla levels, I doubt they will ever be cost competitive.

My last comment about your Eeyore routine wrt to Tesla SuperChargers: in 4/2017 Tesla wrote a news note saying that 5200 Superchargers were installed and they intended to reach 10,000 by the end of the year to support Model 3. As of ~ now, there are 9,955 and expansion is progressing even more rapidly than last year.

 

[johnlocke]

A German company has completed a teardown and cost analysis for the Model 3. Their conclusion was that it costs $18,000 in parts and materials and $10,000 in labor to build the Model 3 for a total build cost of $28,000. That's for the currently available car, not the stripper version promised for next year. It seems that Elon can build these at a fair profit margin after all. It also says that Elon can build the base model at a fairly good margin as well. Makes you wonder if Elon will do the same thing to the Model 3 as they did with the 60 KWH Model S, just electronically limit the battery to 50 KWH with and offer to upgrade OTA for $5000. Save them the trouble of a separate battery line for the smaller battery.

 

[scottf200]

[*]In a year, or two years, maybe 3: Tesla M3 Base model

• Pros:
• Somewhat affordable
• TMS
• Should be comfortable
• Hey! There is a charging infrastructure that could let me make it to Denver if I wanted to! Or Grand junction, perhaps even Moab!

• Cons:
• Won't be available this year for many
• Oh. The battery is more flammable

This is 125 mile radius. What in the world are you thinking with your comment.

 

[IssacZachary]

This is 125 mile radius. What in the world are you thinking with your comment.

I take it you're asking a question. But you lost me as to what you're objecting about.

I was saying I could go places in a Tesla that I can't in a Leaf (at least not quickly), That there are more Tesla DCQC stations around than CHAdeMO. The last time I went to Denver in my Leaf I had to camp out all night on the way there and on the way back, charging off of 120V. The same happened when I went to Rifle, and I almost had to call a tow truck because of a down L2 charging station. In a Tesla I could go from DCQC station to DCQC station (or super charger or whatever the Tesla stations are called.)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

LOL
Excellent way to end this conversation, with true over promise and under delivery.

Why is this funny? Tesla has undoubtedly already lost sales to Chevy and even Nissan :shock: and that will continue.

Which is why Tesla has Model 3 piling up on lots, that no one will buy.

No, wait, never mind. That cannot be right, because the Model 3 is vaporware. Why, the near horizon sales of 5k Model 3 a WEEK is just .... I dunno, ... Tesla sleight of hand ?

Give it a break, folks. You are just making fools of yourselves. Tesla is a juggernaut to be celebrated for being the one and only company that might change the face of road transport in the developed countries this decade. In the meantime try to be useful and convince Nissan to stop treating you like ****.

You are seriously comparing the available supply of a car that has been out 7 years verses a car that has been out 6 months and over a year late to boot not to mention the SR that WILL BE 2+ years late?

 

[finman100]

I just don't understand the lies that persist with people when they mention Tesla. wow. Elon is doing it right when disruption causes ALL kinds of FUD. again, wow.

 

[IssacZachary]

You are seriously comparing the available supply of a car that has been out 7 years verses a car that has been out 6 months and over a year late to boot not to mention the SR that WILL BE 2+ years late?

I think this talk about Tesla delaying over and over again is beating a dead horse with a stick.

Yes, Tesla is late.

Yes, we can buy a Leaf, a Bolt or an i3 right now.

But isn't this thread "a comparison table" between the M3 and the Leaf? If we throw the $35,000 M3 out of the comparison because it's late, then the title should be:

"2018 LEAF: A Table for the USA"

That's what everyone here wants, right? A table just about the Leaf, and only the Leaf. Don't even mention that T word. They are late. There's no sense in comparing a late car with one that exists now. I mean this is the rabbit and the tortoise paradox here, isn't it? The rabbit will never reach nor pass the tortoise because it can't mathematically. So Tesla will never sell another car. Right? I mean, obviously they're through because they are late. They've missed the band wagon. Nobody will ever buy a Tesla because they are late.

Or how about this:

Comparison table:
40kWh Leaf vs. Tesla M3 SR:
Available now vs. Late.

You know, people won't buy a Prius simply because they don't like the way it looks! Yet they'll drool over the next 25mpg crossover because "it's an SUV with car-like fuel mileage." I knew a big family of 10 that needed a van. Yet the mom wouldn't let dad buy a van, not even a minivan, because "she'd look like a soccer mom or something." So they had to drive two gas guzzling SUV's instead.

Now we have people that won't ever buy a Tesla because "they're late." Come on! Really? If there's something you don't like about a car doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same way. Yes, whatever you buy there will be people that will scoff at your choice. But if you let every little thing get in your way of choosing a vehicle then I guess you won't be driving.

 

[scottf200]

This is 125 mile radius. What in the world are you thinking with your comment.

I take it you're asking a question. But you lost me as to what you're objecting about.

I was saying I could go places in a Tesla that I can't in a Leaf (at least not quickly), That there are more Tesla DCQC stations around than CHAdeMO. The last time I went to Denver in my Leaf I had to camp out all night on the way there and on the way back, charging off of 120V. The same happened when I went to Rifle, and I almost had to call a tow truck because of a down L2 charging station. In a Tesla I could go from DCQC station to DCQC station (or super charger or whatever the Tesla stations are called.)

"Hey! There is a charging infrastructure that could let me make it to Denver if I wanted to! Or Grand junction, perhaps even Moab!"

Sorry for being unclear. It was your 'could' or 'perhaps' that threw me. You can EASILY get to all those place as the map with small 125 lowball radius numbers showed for the Tesla Superchargers.

See 125 number here:

 

[SageBrush]

This is 125 mile radius.]

That is cool! The centers are centered around SChargers I take it ?

 

[IssacZachary]

This is 125 mile radius. What in the world are you thinking with your comment.

I take it you're asking a question. But you lost me as to what you're objecting about.

I was saying I could go places in a Tesla that I can't in a Leaf (at least not quickly), That there are more Tesla DCQC stations around than CHAdeMO. The last time I went to Denver in my Leaf I had to camp out all night on the way there and on the way back, charging off of 120V. The same happened when I went to Rifle, and I almost had to call a tow truck because of a down L2 charging station. In a Tesla I could go from DCQC station to DCQC station (or super charger or whatever the Tesla stations are called.)

"Hey! There is a charging infrastructure that could let me make it to Denver if I wanted to! Or Grand junction, perhaps even Moab!"

Sorry for being unclear. It was your 'could' or 'perhaps' that threw me. You can EASILY get to all those place as the map with small 125 lowball radius numbers showed for the Tesla Superchargers.

Wow! Talk about someone (me) who has had their vocabulary changed by driving a 75 mile EV for too long!

You are right. It's not a "could" or "perhaps" anymore than any normal ICE vehicle would make those distances.

 

[scottf200]

This is 125 mile radius.]

That is cool! The centers are centered around SuperChargers I take it ?

Yes, the red dots are superchargers and you can right click on them and turn the radius circles on individually or I think you can turn them all on.

125 mile radius

200 mile radius -- Model S 75D about 250 miles; Model 3 SR about 220 miles

 

[SageBrush]

Scott, what program did you use ?

 

[scottf200]

Scott, what program did you use ?

https://supercharge.info/