Acceleration from 0 to 60

[Frank]

I just watched a video on You Tube where a young lady at an auto show is giving her spiel about the LEAF. She says the Leaf will accelerate from 0 to 60 in 9 seconds. She goes on to say that the acceleration from 0 to 30 is the fastest of any Nissan car produced today, even faster than their GTR sports car.

She goes on to talk about the maintenance required for the LEAF.
No oil, no transmission fluid, no radiator fluid, no power steering fluid, only the brake fluid.

What she said about the fluids in the Leaf is consistent with what I have heard other Nissan representatives say in the past. But is her statement consistent with what we have seen under the Leaf's hood in the photos posted on this forum?

She also answered another question I have had about what type of smartphone will be needed to communicate remotely with the Leaf. She said that any smartphone with internet connectivity will work.

 

[MikeBoxwell]

Certainly the EV12 prototype I drove felt sprightly, but not overly quick. Slightly quicker than my Mitsubishi i-MiEV (0-60mph in 13 seconds) but not in the same realm as my MG. At a guess, I would say the 0-60mph time is in the region of 11 seconds.

However, the 0-60 by itself is not telling the whole story. If you take an ordinary car and try to hit its published 0-60mph times, you've got to really race the car. If you've got a manual transmission, that involves revving the engine to 6,000 revs, dropping the clutch and being lightning quick with your gear change. If you've got an automatic, it means holding the car with the brake pedal whilst you rev the engine and then let the car shoot off. In short, to hit the official times, you're damaging the car.

With an electric car, you just put your foot on the accelerator and it will deliver that performance every time.

So whilst my Mitsubishi i-MiEV may not have the fastest 0-60mph times around, if I want to accelerate quickly, it is very rare that anyone else is accelerating as quickly as me. The acceleration is effortless. The Nissan EV12 prototype I drove felt exactly the same in that regard. So did the Tesla.

 

[evnow]

Ofcourse no one actually does 0 to 60 on real roads. It is more like 0 to 30 or 40. When merging into freeways - it would be 30 to 60 - and when overtaking - may be 60 to 70 or similar.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I just watched a video on You Tube where a young lady at an auto show is giving her spiel about the LEAF. She says the Leaf will accelerate from 0 to 60 in 9 seconds. She goes on to say that the acceleration from 0 to 30 is the fastest of any Nissan car produced today, even faster than their GTR sports car.

She goes on to talk about the maintenance required for the LEAF.
No oil, no transmission fluid, no radiator fluid, no power steering fluid, only the brake fluid.

What she said about the fluids in the Leaf is consistent with what I have heard other Nissan representatives say in the past. But is her statement consistent with what we have seen under the Leaf's hood in the photos posted on this forum?

She also answered another question I have had about what type of smartphone will be needed to communicate remotely with the Leaf. She said that any smartphone with internet connectivity will work.

Many numbers were thrown about, the torque drops off fast at higher speeds as stated by reviewers and if the production car is 3500 lbs don't expect that performance.

 

[Bicster]

Sounds like the Leaf will be plenty sporty around town, but may not be so impressive passing and merging onto the freeway.

Keep in mind it won't ever have to downshift, so passing may still be just fine. Some cars seem to take forever to downshift.

 

[Dav]

Ofcourse no one actually does 0 to 60 on real roads.

I'm not sure why you say this. My daily commute can use the freeway. We have metering. So I sit at a complete stop for a few seconds, then accelerate directly to 70. This is 5 days a week most of the year (start of college semester things slow down for awhile).

Might not work in Los Angeles or Orange County, but it works in East San Diego (the 15, not the 5).

 

[evnow]

I'm not sure why you say this. My daily commute can use the freeway. We have metering. So I sit at a complete stop for a few seconds, then accelerate directly to 70. This is 5 days a week most of the year (start of college semester things slow down for awhile).

And would it matter if the 0-60 in that case is 13 sec instead of 8 ? Afterall these places are designed so that even trucks can have enough time to accelerate ...

BTW, other examples would be moving from a stand still lane into a fast moving lane on the freeway (usually HOV) or starting the freeway traffic after having pulled over to the side.

 

[Dav]

You are right, it doesn't matter. RAV4-EV listed 0-60 was 16 seconds. Always felt quicker than that (slow, but quicker than 16 seconds), but it was never a problem on freeway onramps in any case.

In case there is any doubt, I think acceleration numbers are an ego thing. I simply don't care. "It's good enough"

 

[evnow]

In case there is any doubt, I think acceleration numbers are an ego thing. I simply don't care. "It's good enough"

Exactly - it is just something people boast(ed) about to show how good their "muscle car" is.

 

[DaveEV]

The Tesla is under 2700 lbs, the Leaf is rumored at 3500.

The good news is that the Leaf appears to be about 3300lbs. So actually pretty good on weight.

Would I like it to be lighter? Yeah - I'd prefer if the curb weight was around 3000 lbs, but I doubt that will be possible until the next gen car, at which point you might opt for double the range instead of saving 300 lbs of curb weight.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The Tesla is under 2700 lbs, the Leaf is rumored at 3500.

The good news is that the Leaf appears to be about 3300lbs. So actually pretty good on weight.

Would I like it to be lighter? Yeah - I'd prefer if the curb weight was around 3000 lbs, but I doubt that will be possible until the next gen car, at which point you might opt for double the range instead of saving 300 lbs of curb weight.

3300 is not a good weight 2800-2900 is decent for a "ground up" EV of that size. there are 3100 lb conversions that can do 150 miles and seat 5 plus cargo. The leaf should be under 3000 realistically.

 

[Bicster]

I'm fine with 3300. My spouse would be concerned about safety much below that. (I am not asserting that there is a connection between weight and safety.)

I'll be disappointed if this car doesn't get top safety picks.

 

[evnow]

3300 is not a good weight 2800-2900 is decent for a "ground up" EV of that size. there are 3100 lb conversions that can do 150 miles and seat 5 plus cargo. The leaf should be under 3000 realistically.

I think gen 1 tends to get over-engineered and thus heavy. I expect gen 2 (or even 2012 model) to be better.

Interestingly Fluenze EV is only 100 lb heavier than its ICE counterpart.

 

[DaveEV]

3300 is not a good weight 2800-2900 is decent for a "ground up" EV of that size. there are 3100 lb conversions that can do 150 miles and seat 5 plus cargo. The leaf should be under 3000 realistically.

For a 1st gen, I think the weight is quite reasonable. Most 4 door convention sedans/hatches are right around 3,000lbs.

Prius = 3,000 lbs
Camry = 3,300 lbs
Matrix = 3,000 lbs
Impreza = 3,100 lbs

Considering that the battery pack is about 500 lbs, I'm not surprised the Leaf is a couple hundred pounds overweight.

Weight will come down in future generations of the vehicle once battery costs come down and they can afford to use more aluminum and high-strength steel.

Would like to see what 3,100 lb conversions you are referring to that are comparable to the Leaf, though!

 

[DeaneG]

I'm going to attract some thrown tomatoes here, but I'm just fine with 3300lb. One of the reasons I didn't consider the Tesla roadster was that it was too light for use as a daily commute vehicle. That, plus I hate looking up at the axles of trucks at each stoplight.

Of course weight isn't safety. But all else being equal, it helps against SUVs and Mercs.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm going to attract some thrown tomatoes here, but I'm just fine with 3300lb. One of the reasons I didn't consider the Tesla roadster was that it was too light for use as a daily commute vehicle. That, plus I hate looking up at the axles of trucks at each stoplight.

Of course weight isn't safety. But all else being equal, it helps against SUVs and Mercs.

Good engineering provides safety and the weight does not equal more safety. More weight mens less performance, lower efficiency and shorter stopping times. How is weight a factor in commuting? There are cars that are twice the weight of a roadster and half as safe, the roadster is just a low car, which has nothing to do with weight. So it would be safe if it weighed more- not likely.

 

[planet4ever]

Actually, I think there is a connection. Can you design a tall car for me that doesn't roll over easily? And do it without adding a lot of mass at the bottom? I guess you could make it tall and extra wide, but that's going to add weight, too, unless you make it extra short. But lack of a crumple zone would also compromise safety.

Then, there is the pure physics argument. When two objects with differing mass collide, the lighter one has the greater delta velocity.

P.S. Despite all this, every car I have driven in the past fifty years, save one, was on the light side, and that one had the most serious accident I've experienced.

P.P.S. None of those cars had any acceleration to brag about, and that was fine with me.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Actually, I think there is a connection. Can you design a tall car for me that doesn't roll over easily? And do it without adding a lot of mass at the bottom? I guess you could make it tall and extra wide, but that's going to add weight, too, unless you make it extra short. But lack of a crumple zone would also compromise safety.

Then, there is the pure physics argument. When two objects with differing mass collide, the lighter one has the greater delta velocity.

P.S. Despite all this, every car I have driven in the past fifty years, save one, was on the light side, and that one had the most serious accident I've experienced.

P.P.S. None of those cars had any acceleration to brag about, and that was fine with me.

The old and very large and tall Scion XB had a curb weight of 2300 LBS, the new model with a much larger motor, etc is 2600 lbs. In contrast a small MINI is 2600 lbs. A Yaris 2 door hatchback is 2300, same as the Scion XB was. I think if the Leaf were truly a ground up design it would weigh less, I believe it is based on an existing platform with reinforcement for the pack opening. If the pack did not need to be removed from the bottom a unibody construction would shed quite a bit of weight.

 

[DaveEV]

The old and very large and tall Scion XB had a curb weight of 2300 LBS, the new model with a much larger motor, etc is 2600 lbs. In contrast a small MINI is 2600 lbs. A Yaris 2 door hatchback is 2300, same as the Scion XB was. I think if the Leaf were truly a ground up design it would weigh less, I believe it is based on an existing platform with reinforcement for the pack opening. If the pack did not need to be removed from the bottom a unibody construction would shed quite a bit of weight.

OK, let's look at the cars you are comparing to the Leaf (Using base model w/auto in all cases):

1. 2006 Scion xB:
Curb weight: 2470
Length/Width/Height: 155.3/66.5/64.6
Passenger/Cargo volume: 90/21

2. 2010 Scion XB:
Curb weight: 3086
Length/Width/Height: 167.3/69.3/64.7
Passenger/Cargo volume: 101/22

3. 2010 Mini
Curb weight: 2646
Length/Width/Height: 145.6/66.3/55.4
Passenger/Cargo volume: 76/6

4. 2010 Yaris 3-door
Curb weight: 2355
Length/Width/Height: 150.6/66.7/60.0
Passenger/Cargo volume: 85/13

5. 2010 Yaris sedan
Curb weight: 2346
Length/Width/Height: 169.3/66.5/57.5
Passenger/Cargo volume: 87/13

7. 2010 Toyota Prius
Curb weight: 3042
Length/Width/Height: 175.6/68.7/58.7
Passenger/Cargo volume: 94/22

8. 2011 Nissan Leaf
Curb weight: 3300+ (est)
Length/Width/Height: 175.0/69.7/61.0
Passenger/Cargo volume: unknown

I think given the similarity in dimensions of the Leaf, it will be comparable in passenger/cargo volume to the Prius. All the other cars are substantially smaller and thus lighter.

The Prius battery pack weighs about 100 lbs - substantially lighter than the 440 lbs the Leaf battery supposedly weighs. Your typical 4-cyl engine weighs around 300 lbs, though, so Toyota has obviously done a very good job of keeping the weight down in the Prius. I know the Prius uses an aluminum hood/hatch which saves about 50 lbs between the two - does the Leaf use any aluminum?

Would I like the Leaf to be lighter? As I said before, yes, I would love for it to weigh less than 3000 lbs.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The old and very large and tall Scion XB had a curb weight of 2300 LBS, the new model with a much larger motor, etc is 2600 lbs. In contrast a small MINI is 2600 lbs. A Yaris 2 door hatchback is 2300, same as the Scion XB was. I think if the Leaf were truly a ground up design it would weigh less, I believe it is based on an existing platform with reinforcement for the pack opening. If the pack did not need to be removed from the bottom a unibody construction would shed quite a bit of weight.

OK, let's look at the cars you are comparing to the Leaf (Using base model w/auto in all cases):

1. 2006 Scion xB:
Curb weight: 2470
Length/Width/Height: 155.3/66.5/64.6
Passenger/Cargo volume: 90/21

2. 2010 Scion XB:
Curb weight: 3086
Length/Width/Height: 167.3/69.3/64.7
Passenger/Cargo volume: 101/22

3. 2010 Mini
Curb weight: 2646
Length/Width/Height: 145.6/66.3/55.4
Passenger/Cargo volume: 76/6

4. 2010 Yaris 3-door
Curb weight: 2355
Length/Width/Height: 150.6/66.7/60.0
Passenger/Cargo volume: 85/13

5. 2010 Yaris sedan
Curb weight: 2346
Length/Width/Height: 169.3/66.5/57.5
Passenger/Cargo volume: 87/13

7. 2010 Toyota Prius
Curb weight: 3042
Length/Width/Height: 175.6/68.7/58.7
Passenger/Cargo volume: 94/22

8. 2011 Nissan Leaf
Curb weight: 3300+ (est)
Length/Width/Height: 175.0/69.7/61.0
Passenger/Cargo volume: unknown

I think given the similarity in dimensions of the Leaf, it will be comparable in passenger/cargo volume to the Prius. All the other cars are substantially smaller and thus lighter.

The Prius battery pack weighs about 100 lbs - substantially lighter than the 440 lbs the Leaf battery supposedly weighs. Your typical 4-cyl engine weighs around 300 lbs, though, so Toyota has obviously done a very good job of keeping the weight down in the Prius. I know the Prius uses an aluminum hood/hatch which saves about 50 lbs between the two - does the Leaf use any aluminum?

Would I like the Leaf to be lighter? As I said before, yes, I would love for it to weigh less than 3000 lbs.

The Prius pack only weighs 100 lbs? With packaging, etc? And don't forget to peel of all the ICE components. I have done this on a brand new Yaris and there is quite a bit of junk one would never consider not to mention Yaris components are light, some shared/similar to Prius like EPS. You may also want to get inside the older XB, it's surprisingly large inside. Also it seems the Leaf EV drive/charge components are quite heavy, the entire ACP drive, inverter, 18 kw charger, DC/DC, grid tie, etc is only about 150 lbs total without displays and is far more powerful. It is fast with four large adults up a large hill! I would not be surprised if the Leaf motor alone was close to 200 lbs, large diameter for more torque to carry the high weight and body reinforcement. I have driven two eboxes and they have a real world range or 120-150 miles, but that is another story. The weight in the Leaf is from the large motor, steal reinforcement, etc which is difficult to avoid in a design that was what appears to be a modification of an existing platform. Perhaps they initially were thinking of battery swap compatibility and ease of service.

The MINI is a joke of an EV donor (I sold mine as it was a bad conversion candidate) as it is so class-weighty as an ICE and a bad candidate for efficiency. The point is that in order to make any EV efficient it must be aero and it must be lower weight with a design that respects that closely. I would bet the next gen EVs find a smart way to package the pack so that it does not require truck-like ladder on frame construction. This will require creative pack servicing and packaging design to avoid a large reinforced hole in the bottom. Even the think had a frame like a Tacoma but the upper body was aluminum form tube and plastic door panels to offset this weight requirement. The 10Kw Think pack weighed more than the Leaf pack and the car was 2200 lbs total! Yes, the leaf is a bigger car but it has quite a bit of added steel because it is shown not to be a full unibody based on the drawings. Just look at the size of the motor, it looks like an AC55 almost


I bet if Nissan designed the Leaf with a Lead pack in mind first it would weigh much less, you are really pushed with lead to cut weight and more forgiving with lithium. The best way to get an eye-opening course in EV efficiency and realities is to convert one or build one. Hashing numbers and comparing statistics is like EV back magic and always the humbling mistake of first-time builders. I'll dig up some pack pictures and post them if I can. Check out the original EVDL list, it is full of some brilliant EV engineers and minds, at least it used to be