All "Future" battery technology thread

[cwerdna]

I guess this video falls under the category of future since they claim (at the end) that Leyden's batteries should start cropping up in 2013.

http://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-50130508.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

I haven't followed Envia (and still don't) but one person posted this comment (Akerson being GM's current CEO, who is not a car guy):

The main force behind GM's investment in Envia was Jon Lauckner, who is a car guy and a very smart one at that (the Volt was his idea). He's said the Envia cathode, the rights to which GM has licensed from Argonne, can significantly increase the energy density. I suspect Akerson is just repeating what he's been told by Lauckner.

 

[ydnas7]

http://www.d-incert.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/discharge-curve-KEMA.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

anyone interested in how current EV batteries cycle? (location Holland)
this is for
100% - 0%
100% - 20%
100% - 80%

the 100% - 20% (80% swing) has far more lifetime kWh than 100% - 0% (100% swing) or 100% - 80% (20% swing)

 

[Stoaty]

http://www.d-incert.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/discharge-curve-KEMA.jpg

anyone interested in how current EV batteries cycle? (location Holland)
this is for
100% - 0%
100% - 20%
100% - 80%

the 100% - 20% (80% swing) has far more lifetime kWh than 100% - 0% (100% swing) or 100% - 80% (20% swing)

That's not what the graph shows. It says that:

100% DOD has about 1000 cycles until 80% capacity remains
80% DOD has about 5000 cycles until 80% capacity remains
20% DOD has about 10000 cycles until 80% capacity remains

What is missing is the specific battery chemistry measured, plus other parameters of the test.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

http://www.d-incert.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/discharge-curve-KEMA.jpg

anyone interested in how current EV batteries cycle? (location Holland)
this is for
100% - 0%
100% - 20%
100% - 80%

the 100% - 20% (80% swing) has far more lifetime kWh than 100% - 0% (100% swing) or 100% - 80% (20% swing)

That's not what the graph shows. It says that:

100% DOD has about 1000 cycles until 80% capacity remains
80% DOD has about 5000 cycles until 80% capacity remains
20% DOD has about 10000 cycles until 80% capacity remains

What is missing is the specific battery chemistry measured, plus other parameters of the test.

it doesnt?

100% DOD has about 1000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 1000 capacity cycles

80% DOD has about 5000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 4000 capacity cycles

20% DOD has about 10000 cycles (looks more like 12,000 to me) until 80% capacity remains equals 2400 capacity cycles.

the 80% DOD wins by a long shot

 

[Stoaty]

100% DOD has about 1000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 1000 capacity cycles

80% DOD has about 5000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 4000 capacity cycles

20% DOD has about 10000 cycles (looks more like 12,000 to me) until 80% capacity remains equals 2400 capacity cycles.

the 80% DOD wins by a long shot

You are misinterpreting the meaning of a cycle. A 20% DOD is 1/5 of a cycle, not a full cycle (unless this paper has its own unique definition of a cycle).

 

[ydnas7]

100% DOD has about 1000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 1000 capacity cycles

80% DOD has about 5000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 4000 capacity cycles

20% DOD has about 10000 cycles (looks more like 12,000 to me) until 80% capacity remains equals 2400 capacity cycles.

the 80% DOD wins by a long shot

http://www.d-incert.nl/battery-maintenance-how-do-you-do-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you can find the dutch its probably even more informative, I read the context to imply recharges to 100% in each scenario

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm still waiting for just one of there revolutionary battery technologies that has been announced in the last six years that was "a year away from production" to actually be in production and not a press release. Yes some batteries are getting better slowly but so many companies are making huge claims that are always just "a year away".

 

[Stoaty]

http://www.d-incert.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/discharge-curve-KEMA.jpg

anyone interested in how current EV batteries cycle? (location Holland)
this is for
100% - 0%
100% - 20%
100% - 80%

the 100% - 20% (80% swing) has far more lifetime kWh than 100% - 0% (100% swing) or 100% - 80% (20% swing)

100% DOD has about 1000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 1000 capacity cycles

80% DOD has about 5000 cycles until 80% capacity remains equals 4000 capacity cycles

20% DOD has about 10000 cycles (looks more like 12,000 to me) until 80% capacity remains equals 2400 capacity cycles.

the 80% DOD wins by a long shot

Studying this graph in more detail it appears that they are using the term "cycle" in an atypical way. 100% to 80% and back is generally considered to be 1/5 of a cycle, but it seems that they are counting it as a full cycle. Using that defintion, I would agree that the 20% DOD does poorly--but only because the SOC is kept high the entire time. If they had included 20% DOD between 40% and 60% I bet it would have handily beat the other choices.

 

[tbleakne]

Jon Lauckner >>> said the Envia cathode, the rights to which GM has licensed from Argonne, can significantly increase the energy density.

Last December at the Google BayLeafs meeting, I specifically asked Mark Perry about the Argonne battery technology they were offering for license. He assured me the current LEAF battery technology was superior to the Argonne technology.

Of course now, given Mark Perry's stone-walling on the battery capacity fade in hot climates, I am much less inclined to believe his statements.

 

[GRA]

_Really_ quick charging. As usual, take all claims of "1 year from commercialization" with as many grains of salt as you feel appropriate:

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/for_electric_car_batteries__the_race_for_a_rapid_charge/2569/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+YaleEnvironment360+%28Yale+Environment+360%29&utm_content=Google+Reader" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Stoaty]

Last December at the Google BayLeafs meeting, I specifically asked Mark Perry about the Argonne battery technology they were offering for license. He assured me the current LEAF battery technology was superior to the Argonne technology.

"Current" as in what is in our Leafs now, or "current" as in what they have running in the lab and almost ready for prime time?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I'm still waiting for just one of there revolutionary battery technologies that has been announced in the last six years that was "a year away from production" to actually be in production and not a press release. Yes some batteries are getting better slowly but so many companies are making huge claims that are always just "a year away".

ok, how about this one?

http://insideevs.com/a123-updates-next-gen-nanophosphate-ext-batteries-solves-lithium-battery-heat-issues/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveEV]

I'm still waiting for just one of there revolutionary battery technologies that has been announced in the last six years that was "a year away from production" to actually be in production and not a press release. Yes some batteries are getting better slowly but so many companies are making huge claims that are always just "a year away".

ok, how about this one?

http://insideevs.com/a123-updates-next-gen-nanophosphate-ext-batteries-solves-lithium-battery-heat-issues/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Making progress - instead of "a year away" it's "less than a year away". I have high hopes for this battery - would like to know detailed specs on the battery and their expected cost - could be a game changer, if they can keep the cost competitive and continue to improve the energy density over time...

I have a feeling that a lot of LEAF owners will be itching for A123 to package a module that's a drop-in replacement for the AESC/Nissan modules if it pans out!

 

[vegastar]

The reported test is a cicle life degradation test. What about the calendar life at 75ºC?

From all the data compiled for the LEAF pack degradation, it seems that the major contributor to degratation is time and temperature, with cycling playing a minor part. I would love to see a chart with time on the X-axis.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i am glad that China has invested because that usually means a fast ramp up for production. it pains me however that it is not Nissan which means negotiation, which means additional time to market...

 

[ydnas7]

just thought i'll post this here, move if needed

looks like MNL is famous

http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/showthread.php/8245-Capacity-bar-loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

interestingly charging protocol that guys uses
'I'm past 20,000miles and as you know I only fast charge, and I'm still at the full 12.'

location would be UK i guess.

 

[RegGuheert]

The reported test is a cicle life degradation test. What about the calendar life at 75ºC?

From all the data compiled for the LEAF pack degradation, it seems that the major contributor to degratation is time and temperature, with cycling playing a minor part. I would love to see a chart with time on the X-axis.

+1

Yes, 700 cycles could be completed in 3 to 6 months. What I would find interesting would be a few control cells in the same chamber sitting at various states-of-charge but only cycled once each month to produce a capacity curve that is overlaid onto the cycling results. Having units at SOCs every 10% would be great, but having them every 20% or even every 50% would be better than nothing.

 

[Smidge204]

Sodium-Ion batteries using a carbon anode made by pyrolyzing sugar. Supposedly the cells made this way hold 20% more energy than equivalent Li-Ion cells and obviously cost a lot less given how common and easily obtained sodium (and sugar) are.

http://www.diginfo.tv/v/12-0163-n-en.php

One more battery tech to keep an eye on!
=Smidge=

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The reported test is a cicle life degradation test. What about the calendar life at 75ºC?

From all the data compiled for the LEAF pack degradation, it seems that the major contributor to degratation is time and temperature, with cycling playing a minor part. I would love to see a chart with time on the X-axis.

+1

Yes, 700 cycles could be completed in 3 to 6 months. What I would find interesting would be a few control cells in the same chamber sitting at various states-of-charge but only cycled once each month to produce a capacity curve that is overlaid onto the cycling results. Having units at SOCs every 10% would be great, but having them every 20% or even every 50% would be better than nothing.

on 2nd thought