All "Future" battery technology thread

[gsleaf]

One of the things I dislike the most about the Leaf is I can't charge it to 100% and keep it there until I need it. It's not a huge pain, but it an inconvenience I wish I didn't have to worry about. Is this problem inherit in all lithium-ion batteries or just because of a characteristic of current battery technologies? Is it possible we'll see this limitation removed in the next few years or so?

 

[DaveEV]

One of the things I dislike the most about the Leaf is I can't charge it to 100% and keep it there until I need it. It's not a huge pain, but it an inconvenience I wish I didn't have to worry about. Is this problem inherit in all lithium-ion batteries or just because of a characteristic of current battery technologies? Is it possible we'll see this limitation removed in the next few years or so?

It's an inherent characteristic of lithium batteries.

You'll likely see this limitation largely mitigated thanks to improvements in chemistry, thermal management and as pack size gets bigger as time goes on.

 

[DaveEV]

NEC develops prototype 4.5V, long-life manganese Li-ion battery; 30% more energy density, high capacity and light weight

The headline sounds good, but this paragraph from the article tempers things:

These batteries maintain approximately 80% of their original capacity after undergoing tests with 500 full charge and discharge cycles in conditions below room temperature (20 °C), while maintaining roughly 60% when above room temperature (45 °C). Furthermore, the batteries demonstrate life span performance equivalent to that of conventional 4V batteries.

Still - a simply swap to this chemistry would result in "end-of-life" capacity similar to what the current Nissan LEAF batteries ship with and then you get to enjoy the higher capacity while the battery is new.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

One of the things I dislike the most about the Leaf is I can't charge it to 100% and keep it there until I need it. It's not a huge pain, but it an inconvenience I wish I didn't have to worry about. Is this problem inherit in all lithium-ion batteries or just because of a characteristic of current battery technologies? Is it possible we'll see this limitation removed in the next few years or so?

no. curious? dont you drive your LEAF just about every day? preplanning the charge against driving need should not be that challenging.

it is probably ok in your area to leave your LEAF at full charge up to 8-12 hours and even more so in Winter.

 

[gsleaf]

no. curious? dont you drive your LEAF just about every day? preplanning the charge against driving need should not be that challenging.

it is probably ok in your area to leave your LEAF at full charge up to 8-12 hours and even more so in Winter.

Yeah, I do drive every day. To be fair I LOVE the Leaf so it's not that big of a complaint. Pre-planning works pretty well, I just wish I could top-off and forget (for emergencies, etc.). If I had a longer range I wouldn't care about this at all.

 

[Herm]

One of the things I dislike the most about the Leaf is I can't charge it to 100% and keep it there until I need it. It's not a huge pain, but it an inconvenience I wish I didn't have to worry about. Is this problem inherit in all lithium-ion batteries or just because of a characteristic of current battery technologies? Is it possible we'll see this limitation removed in the next few years or so?

It can be removed today.. LifePO4 lithium batteries such as the CODA BEV uses can be left at 100% for long periods if not ever.. because these cells are fully charged at 3.6V unlike conventional cells at 4.2V.. less stress on the electrolyte at the lower voltage. I think lithium-titanate cells as used in the Fit BEV are the same way.

 

[mkjayakumar]

All it takes is to slap another few more kWh into the pack, so that your 100% today is actually only 80% with the extra capacity added. Pretty much what Volt does.

 

[gsleaf]

All it takes is to slap another few more kWh into the pack, so that your 100% today is actually only 80% with the extra capacity added. Pretty much what Volt does.

Yeah, that would work for me too. Either way this issue will go away in the next few years so I won't worry so much about it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

heck with it, just get quick charge installed in the neighborhood. according to Nissan's new commercial, you get 31 miles of range in 10 minutes which is just about my stats. i am getting about 35 miles of range in 11 minutes which is more range than the next 19 minutes of charging (which i rarely see)

 

[JRP3]

It can be removed today.. LifePO4 lithium batteries such as the CODA BEV uses can be left at 100% for long periods if not ever.. because these cells are fully charged at 3.6V unlike conventional cells at 4.2V.. less stress on the electrolyte at the lower voltage.

LiFePO4 still benefits from being undercharged, and shallow cycled.

 

[Herm]

LiFePO4 still benefits from being undercharged, and shallow cycled.

Not as much as conventional lithium-ion cells.

 

[JRP3]

A123 has shown cycling beyond 10,000 by shallow cycling in the mid range, I'd say that's significant.
Oops, that should have been 100,000 cycles.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/energy_storage/es_04_fulop.pdf

 

[Stoaty]

Here is an interesting claim by NEC that they have developed a Lithium-Manganese battery with a more than twice the lifespan:

http://www.nec.co.jp/press/en/1110/1702.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveEV]

NEC develops prototype 4.5V, long-life manganese Li-ion battery; 30% more energy density, high capacity and light weight

Follow up on this article:

More details on work supporting NEC prototype 4.5V Li-ion battery; modified LiNiMnO cathode and fluorinated electrolyte

NEC Corporation has developed a prototype next-generation manganese lithium-ion battery featuring cathodes that support higher voltage operations (4.5V rather than 3.8V) and an electrolyte solution that improves the stability of the higher voltage operations. (Earlier post.) The new cathode and electrolyte solution improve battery energy density by approximately 30%.

It seems that the primary benefit is that the new chemistry allows for higher voltages without breaking down thus increasing energy density.

NEC's original press release:
NEC Develops High Voltage, Long Life Manganese Lithium-Ion Battery - 30% more energy density, high capacity and light weight

 

[linkim]

NEC develops prototype 4.5V, long-life manganese Li-ion battery; 30% more energy density, high capacity and light weight

Follow up on this article:

More details on work supporting NEC prototype 4.5V Li-ion battery; modified LiNiMnO cathode and fluorinated electrolyte

NEC Corporation has developed a prototype next-generation manganese lithium-ion battery featuring cathodes that support higher voltage operations (4.5V rather than 3.8V) and an electrolyte solution that improves the stability of the higher voltage operations. (Earlier post.) The new cathode and electrolyte solution improve battery energy density by approximately 30%.

It seems that the primary benefit is that the new chemistry allows for higher voltages without breaking down thus increasing energy density.

NEC's original press release:
NEC Develops High Voltage, Long Life Manganese Lithium-Ion Battery - 30% more energy density, high capacity and light weight

I am presently attending the PRIME meeting but did not listen to the presentation. There are advances in the type of high-voltage cathodes that may be useful in EVs, such as the NEC results. Because of electrolyte stability problems, much work is underway on identifying stable high-voltage electrolytes, and many papers are on the program.

There are about 5000 attendees and about 4000 papers listed in the program, spread over 6 days. Besides the many papers on Li-ion technology, Li-air is receiving as a "future technology". There is also a large number of fuel cell papers listed. Because of the many parallel sessions, it is easy to miss interesting papers

Have not seen any LEAFs here in 3 days, but most of the time I stay indoors to avoid the heat and humidity.

 

[francisknize]

APOLLO ENERGY SYSTEMS NOW TESTING VOLTAGE FOR TPX-2(m) -CHARGING AND DISCHARGE CYCLES.

OCTOBER 15, 2012

Apollo Energy Systems, Inc is starting the testing for the TPX-2 Battery. We're projecting a range of 200 miles on a charge in our old prototype vehicle, the 79' Silver Volt Electric Car, a larger and heavier car than the LEAF or 2013 MARS V Electric Car we are planning, which should yield a far greater range, our target being 300 miles or more. This will well out-perform Nissan's Leaf as it is now with their batteries with a range of 75 true miles. The implications for putting AES batteries in the LEAF are phenomenal.

TESTING: The TPX-2(m) plates are in the forming tank. This week we plan to take them out of the forming tank and dry charge them. Then a battery cell will be built in the same size jar now housing TPX-1(m). That cell will then be subject to a number of charge and discharge cycles. Based on the results of this testing, we will be able to project the Cycle Life of the batteries (projected to be 1,500 cycles -see attached Battery Performance Comparisons).

Once we hit that milestone, we are certain the first investors in the present round will appear; we would welcome talking to Nissan. Over twenty parties have visited the Pompano Beach Factory in the last weeks alone. Fisker is coming for a second time, they want a battery that can never catch fire, and ours do not.

And yet Apollo's batteries are 1/4 the cost of Lithium Ion... a no brainer for success...

SEE THE VIDEO! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95OI0rD7Dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Francis Knize
AES Investor Relations
203 544 9603

 

[Stoaty]

Can one of the moderators move this to the "All Future Battery Technology" thread. It certainly isn't ready for prime time.

 

[Luft]

APOLLO ENERGY SYSTEMS NOW TESTING VOLTAGE FOR TPX-2(m) -CHARGING AND DISCHARGE CYCLES.

OCTOBER 15, 2012

Apollo Energy Systems, Inc is starting the testing for the TPX-2 Battery. We're projecting a range of 200 miles on a charge in our old prototype vehicle, the 79' Silver Volt Electric Car, a larger and heavier car than the LEAF or 2013 MARS V Electric Car we are planning, which should yield a far greater range, our target being 300 miles or more. This will well out-perform Nissan's Leaf as it is now with their batteries with a range of 75 true miles. The implications for putting AES batteries in the LEAF are phenomenal.

TESTING: The TPX-2(m) plates are in the forming tank. This week we plan to take them out of the forming tank and dry charge them. Then a battery cell will be built in the same size jar now housing TPX-1(m). That cell will then be subject to a number of charge and discharge cycles. Based on the results of this testing, we will be able to project the Cycle Life of the batteries (projected to be 1,500 cycles -see attached Battery Performance Comparisons).

Once we hit that milestone, we are certain the first investors in the present round will appear; we would welcome talking to Nissan. Over twenty parties have visited the Pompano Beach Factory in the last weeks alone. Fisker is coming for a second time, they want a battery that can never catch fire, and ours do not.

And yet Apollo's batteries are 1/4 the cost of Lithium Ion... a no brainer for success...

SEE THE VIDEO! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95OI0rD7Dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Francis Knize
AES Investor Relations
203 544 9603

I found posts from four years ago discussing this company's "leaf foam" tech. Seems like they have been six months away from production for years. Smells a little scammy to me. In their video they test drive their "silver volt" and I could swear I could hear an ICE!

 

[Stoaty]

I found posts from four years ago discussing this company's "leaf foam" tech. Seems like they have been six months away from production for years. Smells a little scammy to me. In their video they test drive their "silver volt" and I could swear I could hear an ICE!

They didn't even make the list of Lux Research ranking:

http://www.luxresearchinc.com/blog/2011/09/ranking-li-ion-battery-developers-on-the-lux-innovation-grid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No thanks.

 

[ydnas7]

They didn't even make the list of Lux Research ranking:

http://www.luxresearchinc.com/blog/2011/09/ranking-li-ion-battery-developers-on-the-lux-innovation-grid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No thanks.

Technically NEC is not shown in LUX's graph but I would consider them the key technology/scale source for AESC. (and to some extent key for for GS Yuasa also).