An Argument That We Need To Kill

[SanDust]

I would certainly LOVE to pay a $5 equivalent fee on those occasions and have two leaf's in my garage. Now I must have 1 + 1 ICE. What sense is that?

Strategic fee based L3 is the answer to EV adoption. Not millions of L2 that everyone complains about..

It's more like EV adoption is the answer to fee based DC charging. NRG is proposing to put in 200 chargers to cover a few geographic areas. Assume that each installation costs $50,000 and will be depreciated over five years. Also assume that the demand charges alone for each installation will be $1600 per month. This means the yearly operating cost at a minimum will be $6 million, requiring 1.2 million charging events at $5 per charge. If every Leaf used one of these DC chargers four times a year, you'd need 300,000 Leafs. We're a long way from that number.

The economics of Level II chargers are completely different since the cost of installation is much lower and demand charges would be minimal. Hence they make more sense.

Distributing costs over a larger number of charging events is why I said Leaf owners need to stop complaining about PHEV's taking "their chargers" and start encouraging them to do so. More cars charging means it costs less to provide each charge, making the installation of chargers more attractive to businesses which could install them.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I would certainly LOVE to pay a $5 equivalent fee

Absolutely. I wouldn't mind charges equivalent to Gasoline for those occasional L3 charging, because in the end my L3 public charging would be around may be 10-15% of my total charging needs. If that helps me relieve range anxiety and gets rid my other ICE car, then why not ?

 

[GRA]

I would certainly LOVE to pay a $5 equivalent fee on those occasions and have two leaf's in my garage. Now I must have 1 + 1 ICE. What sense is that?

Strategic fee based L3 is the answer to EV adoption. Not millions of L2 that everyone complains about..

It's more like EV adoption is the answer to fee based DC charging. NRG is proposing to put in 200 chargers to cover a few geographic areas. Assume that each installation costs $50,000 and will be depreciated over five years. Also assume that the demand charges alone for each installation will be $1600 per month. This means the yearly operating cost at a minimum will be $6 million, requiring 1.2 million charging events at $5 per charge. If every Leaf used one of these DC chargers four times a year, you'd need 300,000 Leafs. We're a long way from that number.

The economics of Level II chargers are completely different since the cost of installation is much lower and demand charges would be minimal. Hence they make more sense.

Distributing costs over a larger number of charging events is why I said Leaf owners need to stop complaining about PHEV's taking "their chargers" and start encouraging them to do so. More cars charging means it costs less to provide each charge, making the installation of chargers more attractive to businesses which could install them.

Indeed. My personal take is that any vehicle that wants to run on electricity instead of fossil fuels is welcome to plug in. But PHEV owners should show some courtesy by having one of those EVSE sharing signs allowing BEVs who really need a charge to unplug them and get one, or at least provide a cell phone number that the BEV owner can call and ask if it's okay. I'd rather encourage courteous behavior than policing, unless that's the only thing that works.

 

[Nubo]

Here's my take

If I am looking for a charging spot and I come upon one that is in-use, then I need to move on. As long as it's a *chargeable* car, then I don't have a problem with it. Unless they have some type of placard that indicates it's ok to unplug them, I need to move on. I'm not going to waste any emotion over whether or not they have more or less of a right than me, as I simply do not know their circumstances. If they have a plug, they have a right as far as I'm concerned. Just as when in an ICE vehicle I don't begrudge other vehicles their parking spaces or imagine that they could have done their business more quickly so that I'd have an empty spot.

If I am parked in a public charging spot, I *will* make an effort to move after I'm sufficiently charged -- depending on the circumstances. For charging at work (if that ever happens), this would be a no-brainer. But, this weekend we may be headed into the city and the round-trip will be pretty close to the margins so I'll likely be finding a public charge spot. Once there we will be out and about and probably far away from the charge location for some time -- on foot. So the car is going to stay where it is, probably longer than the 4 hours or so it will take to complete a charge. I am not going to feel guilty about this, though I probably will leave a placard if the situation allows.

BEVs, PHEVs, etc... all put together are a tiny segment of drivers. It's crazy to fight each other. We need the electric movement to grow.

 

[Alric]

Can you see from the outside if the Volt or PiP are fully charged?

Part of charging etiquette could be that you are allowed to unplug fully charged vehicles. Conversely if you are leaving your spot and an unplugged vehicle is parked next to you it could be expected that you plug it in.

 

[LKK]

The signs at the EV charging stations at Balboa Park here in San Diego says the parking space must be used "while charging". If you have a PIP you better plan to make a quick visit as it will only take a few minutes to charge it up.

 

[DANandNAN]

Can you see from the outside if the Volt or PiP are fully charged?

Part of charging etiquette could be that you are allowed to unplug fully charged vehicles. Conversely if you are leaving your spot and an unplugged vehicle is parked next to you it could be expected that you plug it in.

The light is in the middle of the dash, right under the windshield. I don't have the Charge Protocol Card http://www.evchargernews.com/chargeprotocolcard.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; yet, because there's only one public station (2 chargers) in Jax and there's only 4 EV's here - ok, there's more, but not a lot yet. I'll probably print it out and bring it along eventually.

I think the whole "need" thing being thrown around is a bit much. When we buy our Leaf or FFE we're not going to kick someone else off a charger because we "need" it more than them unless it's a true emergency. The rest of the time it's not really a "need" it's more of a serious desire to charge. It may be frustrating that someone else (BEV, EREV or PiP) is using the spot but a lack of planning on their part does not constitute an emergency on currently charging EV's part. Now if it's ICE'd I'm calling for a tow truck to drag them out

 

[billvon]

Their whole point for not buying a Volt is that it got 50mpg.. So fine. They need to drive it on gas. It is their fault for buying the vehicle with inferior range.

Well, by that argument, if your Leaf has a superior range - you don't need the charger either. And if it doesn't, it's your fault for buying a car with an inferior range.

 

[mitch672]

Can you see from the outside if the Volt or PiP are fully charged?

Part of charging etiquette could be that you are allowed to unplug fully charged vehicles. Conversely if you are leaving your spot and an unplugged vehicle is parked next to you it could be expected that you plug it in.

On the PiP there is an orange charging symbol to the left of J-1772 inlet, when it goes out the charging is complete. It takes 90 minutes to fully charge a PiP, that's more than a few minutes but much less than a Leaf. I have a charging protocol card in my PiP, I don't mind if someone needs a charge and unplugs the PiP, it still works on gas, we are just trying to minimize gasoline use, like everyone else here.

Notice orange "plug" light on, while charging, goes off when charging is completed, or the timer is active (waiting to charge)

Charging light off in this picture

 

[TEG]

Can you see from the outside if the Volt or PiP are fully charged?

Part of charging etiquette could be that you are allowed to unplug fully charged vehicles. Conversely if you are leaving your spot and an unplugged vehicle is parked next to you it could be expected that you plug it in.

The Volt can be set to sound an alarm (horn honk, etc.) if you unplug the J1772 while the car is locked. So, even if you see indications that the battery is already full, you may find the Volt unfriendly to "plug sharing."


By the way, many EVSEs (such as Chargepoint) will show you when the vehicle is done charging, so, even if the vehicle doesn't indicate being full, you can tell it is because the EVSE stopped providing charge.

 

[lpickup]

By the way, many EVSEs (such as Chargepoint) will show you when the vehicle is done charging, so, even if the vehicle doesn't indicate being full, you can tell it is because the EVSE stopped providing charge.

Yes, and many don't. Or, you have to be familiar with the particular unit to know whether it is actively charging or not (e.g. it lights yellow when charging, green when not...)

 

[kubel]

Instead of us doing battle with PHEV drivers that fairly beat us to the plugs, we should welcome their presence. The more cars equipped with J1772, the better. That means more corporations and work places will be installing more chargers since there is more demand. At this point, there are a hell of a lot more parking lots without charging stations than there are parking lots with charging stations that are PHEV'ed. See where I'm going? It's a blessing in disguise, we are just too selfish to see it.

 

[coolfilmaker]

Well, I guess we can kiss public charging goodbye. It was nice while it lasted.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-third-fastest-selling-car-in-america/

 

[mitch672]

Well, I guess we can kiss public charging goodbye. It was nice while it lasted.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-third-fastest-selling-car-in-america/

Not quite, we all per-ordered the PiP in October, and they just started delivering them in March and April, I would hardly call that the "third fastest selling car in America", as usual the author has NO clue as to how to interpret that facts correctly. Only if the sales continue for an extended time would that be true, the base model PiP is $33K, the Advanced model is $40K, and the federal credit is just $2,500, I seriously doubt this will continue at the current rate. Also Toyota is only going to make a maximum of 15,000 the first year, BEVs have nothing to worry about.

 

[Nubo]

Instead of us doing battle with PHEV drivers that fairly beat us to the plugs, we should welcome their presence. The more cars equipped with J1772, the better. That means more corporations and work places will be installing more chargers since there is more demand. At this point, there are a hell of a lot more parking lots without charging stations than there are parking lots with charging stations that are PHEV'ed. See where I'm going? It's a blessing in disguise, we are just too selfish to see it.

+1

 

[hill]

They have as much right as you to plug in.. after all, they may just have a gallon of gas in the tank.

This will be an issue with L3 fast chargers also, thats why I advocate that the driver be required to remain with the car as it fast charges.

People with certain medical implants can't be inside the car while it's charging.

Poor Pamela Anderson ... no EV for her

 

[TRONZ]

Well, I guess we can kiss public charging goodbye. It was nice while it lasted.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-third-fastest-selling-car-in-america/

Actually I disagree. If the problem becomes so unbalanced that PIP's are not allowing BEV's to charge just by sheer number, the CA legislature will be forced to act. Hard to have a ZEV mandate when PHEV's are disrupting adoption of ZEV. If PIP sales get far ahead of infrastructure availability, I would not be surprised if the PIP becomes its own worst enemy.

 

[davewill]

Well, I guess we can kiss public charging goodbye. It was nice while it lasted.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-third-fastest-selling-car-in-america/

Actually I disagree. If the problem becomes so unbalanced that PIP's are not allowing BEV's to charge just by sheer number, the CA legislature will be forced to act. Hard to have a ZEV mandate when PHEV's are disrupting adoption of ZEV. If PIP sales get far ahead of infrastructure availability, I would not be surprised if the PIP becomes its own worst enemy.

I disagree with you both. The more the merrier. If the charging stations are constantly in use, we will finally be breaking through the chicken and egg problem and a market for public charging can evolve.

 

[DANandNAN]

Well, I guess we can kiss public charging goodbye. It was nice while it lasted.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-third-fastest-selling-car-in-america/

Actually I disagree. If the problem becomes so unbalanced that PIP's are not allowing BEV's to charge just by sheer number, the CA legislature will be forced to act. Hard to have a ZEV mandate when PHEV's are disrupting adoption of ZEV. If PIP sales get far ahead of infrastructure availability, I would not be surprised if the PIP becomes its own worst enemy.

So what you're saying is that the Leaf, of which there's like 11K in the entire US and 260(?) Mitsubishi i's, are going to go up against the mighty Toyota and their PiP owners and force them to stop using the EVSE because it's inconvenient for BEV to have to wait?

There's no way Toyota (and Chevy, Ford and so on) and their owners would allow a law to pass mandating all the pulbic EVSE stations to become BEV only. Sorry, but everyone has to share and wait till there are more stations available. That's the solution, more stations not BEV only stations.

The more the merrier is right Dave. The more EV out there, the more stations stores, zoos, restaurants and so on will put in.

 

[smkettner]

I look forward to the day when most cars plug in. May as well try to get along. Otherwise get their first