Arizona Leaf a good deal or should avoid?

[hyperlexis]

Hi there -- a local dealer is listing a 2011 Leaf with the Chademo option for about $16,800.

However, the Carfax shows the car was from Arizona, had one owner, and has near 30,000 miles.

Is this a fair price, or is this car damaged goods, being from Arizona?

Should I demand a much lower price, or is this a good price given the fact the car is from a very hot climate area?

Can one determine battery degradation / fast charge usage by looking at the dashboard? Would I need a printout from a dealer's mechanic?

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[DesertDenizen]

Arizona is not monolithic. A car from, say, Flagstaff, would be fine. Phoenix, forget it.
But in any event ask how many capacity bars remain, that should answer your question.

 

[hyperlexis]

Arizona is not monolithic. A car from, say, Flagstaff, would be fine. Phoenix, forget it.
But in any event ask how many capacity bars remain, that should answer your question.

It says Mesa, AZ. Is that good?

Still, is it a good bargain? (esp. considering the heat issue?)

When considering the bars, is it just that the car will simply never charge all the way up or that it will show a full charge, but very quickly drop down to a lower percentage once unplugged and driven. (Like an old cell phone or laptop battery...).

Is there a setting on the car's computer that shows full details on the total 'health' of the battery?

 

[DesertDenizen]

Uh oh, Mesa is just a suburb of Phoenix. Find out how many capacity bars are left. Losing capacity bars will determine the range of your Leaf. I think of it this way. Say you have an ICE with a 16 gallon gas tank. You replace this with a 13.5 gallon gas tank. Later you replace this with a 12 gallon gas tank. This is kind of what happens as you lose one, then two, capacity bars.

 

[hyperlexis]

Uh oh, Mesa is just a suburb of Phoenix. Find out how many capacity bars are left. Losing capacity bars will determine the range of your Leaf. I think of it this way. Say you have an ICE with a 16 gallon gas tank. You replace this with a 13.5 gallon gas tank. Later you replace this with a 12 gallon gas tank. This is kind of what happens as you lose one, then two, capacity bars.

OK, but again, I ask does that mean you charge the car for x-hours but no matter how long you charge it, it will never ever reach X-bars on the display? Or is it more nuanced? The display will show a full charge, but it wont really be full...

How is a buyer supposed to tell while looking in a dealer's lot?

And what is a fair offer for a used 2011 Leaf with 30k and a potentially cooked battery?

 

[evnow]

Hi there -- a local dealer is listing a 2011 Leaf with the Chademo option for about $16,800.

However, the Carfax shows the car was from Arizona, had one owner, and has near 30,000 miles.

Is this a fair price, or is this car damaged goods, being from Arizona?

I'd not pay more than $10k for a Leaf from hot areas of Arizona. Also make sure you are fine with some 45 miles of range (as the battery degrades further).

Anyway, my advice is to lease a new car. Not bother about '11s.

ps : I tried to sell my '11 in Seattle (just 12k miles) and wouldn't get more than $17.5k.

 

[cwerdna]

OK, but again, I ask does that mean you charge the car for x-hours but no matter how long you charge it, it will never ever reach X-bars on the display? Or is it more nuanced? The display will show a full charge, but it wont really be full...

How is a buyer supposed to tell while looking in a dealer's lot?

And what is a fair offer for a used 2011 Leaf with 30k and a potentially cooked battery?

First off, can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

No, you need to distinguish between the "fuel" bars and the capacity bars. The capacity bars in thin bars on the very right side of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The Leaf shown there has lost 3 capacity bars. The "fuel" bars are still on the right side but wider. That 3 bar loser is fully charged.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=220120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a summary of the capacity loss issues and Nissan's handling of the situation, initially very poor.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are the results of Tony's range tests. At the time, he wasn't able to get a control car (relatively new Leaf w/new battery) but he got one later. It achieved ~84 to 88 miles on the same test course.

In short, a car w/capacity loss will have less range. I wouldn't pay very much for such a car, but if it were at 3 or 4 capacity bars of loss, perhaps you can get it replaced under the 5 year/60K mile capacity warranty once it gets down to 4 bars: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. If you live in a hot climate yourself, forget it. Don't bother buying the car, unless you range needs are VERY modest and you don't care about future resale value.

I make the note about resale value due to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Once you're outside the battery capacity warranty, if you want a new battery, there's still no price but instead Nissan takes your battery, replaces it w/a new 12-bar battery and you're stuck paying $100/month for essentially a battery rental/lease. You don't own that replacement battery. How much do you think a car w/a $100/month obligation is worth?

What is your daily commute like? How many miles and how much highway vs. city? Will you be able to charge at your destination(s)?

 

[hyperlexis]

Hi there -- a local dealer is listing a 2011 Leaf with the Chademo option for about $16,800.

However, the Carfax shows the car was from Arizona, had one owner, and has near 30,000 miles.

Is this a fair price, or is this car damaged goods, being from Arizona?

I'd not pay more than $10k for a Leaf from hot areas of Arizona. Also make sure you are fine with some 45 miles of range (as the battery degrades further).

Anyway, my advice is to lease a new car. Not bother about '11s.

ps : I tried to sell my '11 in Seattle (just 12k miles) and wouldn't get more than $17.5k.

Are you serious? Would a dealer even consider that, $10k? (I'd write the check immediately if he would). My daily commute is about 19 miles.

Would I ever be allowed to replace the battery under their capacity loss warranty or is that just for original owners?

 

[cwerdna]

My daily commute is about 19 miles.

Would I ever be allowed to replace the battery under their capacity loss warranty or is that just for original owners?

19 miles total?

You should be able to get it replaced, but it needs to lose 4 capacity bars before the 5 years/60K miles are up, to be eligible. If you're in a hot climate like much (?) of TX, Phoenix, Vegas, etc., a 2 or 3 bar loser now will probably lose at least 1-2 bars by October, in my opinion.

 

[hyperlexis]

My daily commute is about 19 miles.

Would I ever be allowed to replace the battery under their capacity loss warranty or is that just for original owners?

19 miles total?

You should be able to get it replaced, but it needs to lose 4 capacity bars before the 5 years/60K miles are up, to be eligible. If you're in a hot climate like much (?) of TX, Phoenix, Vegas, etc., a 2 or 3 bar loser now will probably lose at least 1-2 bars by October, in my opinion.

Yes -- I pretty much drive across town back and forth to work (stop and go traffic) and then home. Maybe go to store after work etc. Possibly highway travel, 35 miles each way on weekends (rare).

Not terribly hot here (Illinois) but cold winters.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Are you serious? Would a dealer even consider that, $10k? (I'd write the check immediately if he would). My daily commute is about 19 miles.

Would I ever be allowed to replace the battery under their capacity loss warranty or is that just for original owners?

The dealer probably would not consider 10k. Resale prices haven't adjusted yet. You're getting inside knowledge from experienced folk.
Cars like that have experienced significant capacity degradation. They can't travel as far on a charge and are therefore less useful. Nissan amazingly has not announced a price for a replacement battery. Officially, there is no way no how to get a replacement battery on your own.

If the battery loses 4 bars, roughly 30% of its capacity within 5 years or 60k miles, Nissan will replace it with something that has higher capacity, but officially that might mean a battery that is only slightly better.

Look at the range chart available on this site. At 75mph, a Leaf with a healthy battery can only go 62 miles. If the battery is degraded to 70% capacity, you're talking only 43 mile range. And thats until the car won't run. You'd want to keep 5-10 miles in reserve, so we're talking 33-38 miles TOTAL range at 75mph from a battery degraded to the point of qualifying for the battery replacement warranty. 33 miles is a long way from the original quote of 100 mile range. The Leaf's efficiency drops greatly at highway speeds. Having the heater running in the winter will significantly cut the range as well. Should do great in your cross town trips.

Given the lack of clarity of information that Nissan has given on replacement batteries, it is absolutely not worth it to buy a used Leaf with known battery degradation.

Leases on new Leafs are amazingly cheap. Can usually get them for $200-250/mo. They should be double that, but Nissan is bolstering the residual. In 2-3 years, hopefully the battery mess will have been sorted out.

 

[hyperlexis]

OK Wow -- so that is what those bars on the right mean. I just checked and the AZ car seems down by 3 segments(?). There seem to be 9 bars present.

Sorry I tried to insert the image of the dashboard display here but it didn't work. Here is an online link to the picture:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=B53E8F6801EEC0A9!16450&authkey=!AP6Z28y6LrLWZyk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Yep. It's lost 3 capacity bars. There is the question of how many bars there will be after the software update. If you buy it, I'd try to get the price WAY down and you really want the battery to lose a 4th capacity bar so you can get it replaced. If it doesn't, sucks to be you.

You should really look into leases and do remember that there is a $7500 Federal tax credit, if you buy a new one.

 

[hyperlexis]

^^^
Yep. It's lost 3 capacity bars. There is the question of how many bars there will be after the software update. If you buy it, I'd try to get the price WAY down and you really want the battery to lose a 4th capacity bar so you can get it replaced. If it doesn't, sucks to be you.

You should really look into leases and do remember that there is a $7500 Federal tax credit, if you buy a new one.

I just emailed the salesman and offered him $10K like the other poster mentioned. I explained how the battery was seriously degraded because it was a Phoenix vehicle and exposed to severe conditions, and now has permanently lost 30% of its capacity.

Hopefully they will agree to make a deal. I'm really shocked how bad that battery loss is.

So say I do get the car, will Nissan repair/replace the battery if it gets to 69.9% (as measured by the dealer's mechanic's test equipment) or must it lose a whole additional bar on the dashboard? -- Which is a huge additional percentage of loss.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Hopefully they will agree to make a deal. I'm really shocked how bad that battery loss is.

So say I do get the car, will Nissan repair/replace the battery if it gets to 69.9% (as measured by the dealer's mechanic's test equipment) or must it lose a whole additional bar on the dashboard? -- Which is a huge additional percentage of loss.

I doubt the dealer will come down that much. Sadly, its almost like selling a flood damaged car. Most consumers would have no clue. Dealer probably more than happy to sell it to an unsuspecting new EV buyer. This will ultimately give all EVs and especially the Leaf a very bad name. Its no accident this car has ended up away from the Arizona heat. People are less likely to know about the issue.

You have to lose another bar for the warranty to kick in. It does not go by any other report. But the car is required to get a firmware update which might change the reading. If you do get it, best bet would be to try and cook it. Make the battery lose that last bar and get a warranty replacement. Not sure if I'd be willing to take the risk and hassle. To mistreat the battery, charge it to 100% and park it in the hottest place possible for days on end.

The warranty text on the website says,

the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Have we mentioned that there are awesome deals on leases of new 2013 Leafs?
I should mention that they're awesome cars, especially when not heat damaged with degraded batteries. 2013 has significant improvements. More trunk space, more efficient heat pump for winter heating, battery % charge display (hard to imagine being without it), 6.6kw charger for twice as fast charging on most models.

 

[hyperlexis]

Hopefully they will agree to make a deal. I'm really shocked how bad that battery loss is.

So say I do get the car, will Nissan repair/replace the battery if it gets to 69.9% (as measured by the dealer's mechanic's test equipment) or must it lose a whole additional bar on the dashboard? -- Which is a huge additional percentage of loss.

I doubt the dealer will come down that much. Sadly, its almost like selling a flood damaged car. Most consumers would have no clue. Dealer probably more than happy to sell it to an unsuspecting new EV buyer. This will ultimately give all EVs and especially the Leaf a very bad name. Its no accident this car has ended up away from the Arizona heat. People are less likely to know about the issue.

You have to lose another bar for the warranty to kick in. It does not go by any other report. But the car is required to get a firmware update which might change the reading. If you do get it, best bet would be to try and cook it. Make the battery lose that last bar and get a warranty replacement. Not sure if I'd be willing to take the risk and hassle. To mistreat the battery, charge it to 100% and park it in the hottest place possible for days on end.

The warranty text on the website says,

the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Have we mentioned that there are awesome deals on leases of new 2013 Leafs?
I should mention that they're awesome cars, especially when not heat damaged with degraded batteries. 2013 has significant improvements. More trunk space, more efficient heat pump for winter heating, battery % charge display (hard to imagine being without it), 6.6kw charger for twice as fast charging on most models.

I agree -- unscrupulous sellers will hide the fact, or worse, say it means the battery just needs an overnight charge, etc....

Regardless, I will call Carfax and report this. Carfax should start including this data in their reports because its so critical for an EV purchase.

 

[cwerdna]

If you do get it, best bet would be to try and cook it. Make the battery lose that last bar and get a warranty replacement. Not sure if I'd be willing to take the risk and hassle. To mistreat the battery, charge it to 100% and park it in the hottest place possible for days on end.

Problem w/cooking it is that you don't want to run afoul of the original (non-capacity warranty). See page 12 of the '11 Leaf's warranty booklet (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/NissanLEAF/2011/2011-NissanLEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false, to see what I'm talking about.

 

[pchilds]

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting
from or caused by:
Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above
120F (49C) for over 24 hours.
Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C)
for over seven days.
Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the
lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state
of charge.
Physically damaging the lithium-ion battery or intentionally
attempting to reduce the life of the lithium-ion
battery.
Exposing the lithium-ion battery to contact with a
direct flame.
Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis
despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state
of charge level (98-100%).
Immersing any portion of the lithium-ion battery in
water or fluids.
Opening the lithium-ion battery enclosure or having
it serviced by someone other than a Nissan LEAF
certified technician.
Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.
Use of incompatible charging devices.
Consequential damage caused by the failure to repair
an existing problem.

 

[TimLee]

I agree -- unscrupulous sellers will hide the fact, or worse, say it means the battery just needs an overnight charge, etc....

Regardless, I will call Carfax and report this. Carfax should start including this data in their reports because its so critical for an EV purchase.

You don't know enough about the LEAF to even contemplate buying a LEAF.
Look at the economics of leasing a LEAF for a year or two, that might make financial sense.

 

[cgaydos]

You're buying in Illinois, right? For a new 2013 LEAF you are eligible for tax credits of $7500 federal and $4000 state - $11,500 total. Now, need to be cautious because there are catches with each, but assuming you research both and can get the full amount of each, then consider what a *new* LEAF will cost you.

It's hard to compare a 2011 directly to a 2013. If it's an SL with the QC port then the closest 2013 might be an SV with a premium package. Even then you are getting the cold weather stuff that wasn't on the 2011 (well, a few late-in-the-year 2011s had that, but none would have in AZ), a heat pump upgrade, the 6.6 kW charger upgrade, but losing on a few other features like homelink, roof solar panel, and rear cargo cover. Quite a few differences. Even so, the 2013 SV w/ package runs about $32k list, less $11.5k tax credits, puts it at $20.5k - and you can knock a couple thousand off that from the dealer so you're down to $18.5k before taxes.

Now how does that 2011 SL with 30k miles at $16.8k look, even before you factor in the AZ battery issues?

Caveats: 1) The tax credits come to you when you file your taxes in early 2014 and get your refunds. You have to find the money up front now. 2) The federal credit works only if you have $7500 in tax liability for the year. There are some ways to bump up your liability, such as with excess IRA contributions, but beware of this issue. 3) I've not researched the IL state tax credit at all - by all means do so before buying! 4) If you do claim the $7500 tax credit it is not subject to AMT itself, but it changes your AMT formula such that almost any other special credit or deduction in the same year - such as the 30% for a home charging station - won't count in that year. 5) Your state taxes will be on the value BEFORE the tax credits.

So, that's a lot of caveats, and yes the tax credit stuff is complicated (more than it needs to be). A lot of people avoid it, which is why if you do go through the bother you can save a lot of money.