At what Electric Rate would owning an EV not make sense?

[nsainfreek]

I'm wondering how much would electricity have to cost before it outweighs owning an ICE or even a highly efficient hybrid. On these forums, I read people paying electric rates of around 7 cents/kwh up to around 13 cents/kwh. Here on Oahu, our effect residential electric rate last month was 35 cents/kwh and our only utility company is planned for more increases to come. I've been getting around 4.2 miles/kwh in my leaf and our gas prices are floating around $4.29/gallon. Using these numbers, I calculated the leaf getting a gas cost equivalent of 50mpg. The current Prius has an epa 51/48mpg so they are relatively close in efficiency here on Oahu (cost of electricity is higher on other islands).

Honestly, at these rates I figured my savings driving an EV would be minimal. In order to increase the benefit, I try to charge exclusively away from home which has been going pretty well. As fuel prices increase my savings will become greater but my cost of electricity is also steadily rising.

Thoughts?

 

[leafedbehind]

At those electric rates, rooftop solar makes a lot of sense!

 

[nsainfreek]

At those electric rates, rooftop solar makes a lot of sense!

Yeah, the PV business here is booming considering both Federal and State tax incentives. There are many California companies that have come here specifically to do PV installations. I do have a bunch of panels on my house but have not zeroed out my bill yet so the additional EV usage would add to my electric bill.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

you have PV on your roof? sounds like gas would be much more expensive. unless you are driving a Prius now, you might want to figure it a lower mpg. hills do not bode well for performance and the Prius is vulnerable to that.

so adding PV is not an option I am guessing?

 

[smkettner]

Is 35 cents an anytime rate? Do you have any TOU rates available?

 

[yorkhung]

In Southern California. SCE company provides the second meter option for EV. I installed the second meter for the Nissan Leaf and is currently paying 12 cent per kWatts.

 

[RLewisCA]

In Southern California. SCE company provides the second meter option for EV. I installed the second meter for the Nissan Leaf and is currently paying 12 cent per kWatts.

I'm in the middle of this process now. Would you mind sharing how much your electrician charged to install the pull box, new panel and meter ring?

 

[nsainfreek]

Adding more PV is not an option right now. I'm still paying off the first system. 35 cents is the average rate a resident pays. The rates vary depending on time of day. TOU rates are available but I've yet to calculate to see if it will actually cost me more. TOU rates allow 6cents less than typical rates if used between 9pm-7am, 2 cents ABOVE typical rates from 7am-5pm and 5 cents ABOVE from 5pm to 9pm. House is busiest from 5-9 so I'm thinking I'd actually lose money. We also have separate metering option which would be the best option except I'd have too pay for installation. Right now, not doing to bad charging exclusively away from home.

The question is more so just to see where driving an EV wouldn't benefit much anymore. I'm not really comparing to other vehicles just calculating , based on cost, to see what the equivalent leaf mpg is. That mpg is around 50 and there are cars out there getting 50 mpg so why drive a leaf instead? Yes the prius may get bad mileage on the hills but so does the leaf.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Cal ulating the benefit is difficult unless u r only looking at one thing, money.

Gas cars are subject to market forces so using todays prices is a big gamble. Electricity rates are not as volatile. Crs require more maintenance and time. I think i would look at ways of reducing your electricty usage. More efficient lighting, shading toreduce cooling costs, laundry during off peak, vampire load surveys, etc.

How big is your PV system? Is it putting out the power expected?

 

[dgpcolorado]

Adding more PV is not an option right now. I'm still paying off the first system. 35 cents is the average rate a resident pays. The rates vary depending on time of day. TOU rates are available but I've yet to calculate to see if it will actually cost me more. TOU rates allow 6cents less than typical rates if used between 9pm-7am, 2 cents ABOVE typical rates from 7am-5pm and 5 cents ABOVE from 5pm to 9pm. House is busiest from 5-9 so I'm thinking I'd actually lose money. We also have separate metering option which would be the best option except I'd have too pay for installation. Right now, not doing to bad charging exclusively away from home.

The question is more so just to see where driving an EV wouldn't benefit much anymore. I'm not really comparing to other vehicles just calculating , based on cost, to see what the equivalent leaf mpg is. That mpg is around 50 and there are cars out there getting 50 mpg so why drive a leaf instead? Yes the prius may get bad mileage on the hills but so does the leaf.

Ok, lets assume you drive at 5 miles/kWh, charge at L2 at 86% efficiency, and you are comparing to a 50 mpg Prius at $4.10/gallon.

That 5 miles/kWh ought to be pretty easy in your warm climate unless you drive mostly at 60+ mph, which I'm guessing you don't, given my experience with Honolulu. (If you would like to provide a speed profile of a typical trip I can come up with a better estimate.)

So, 5 miles/kWh x 86% = 4.3 miles/kWh from the wall.
4.3 miles/kWh = 0.233 kWh/mile
0.233 kWh/mile x 35¢/kWh = 8.1¢/mile

For the Prius:
50 miles/gallon = 0.02 gallons/mile
0.02 gallons/mile x $4.10/gallon = 8.2¢/mile

As you can see, the fuel cost is about the same. As others have said, there are other benefits to driving an electric car. Also, gas prices may increase but electricity rates are more likely to remain fairly stable. If you can someday get more PV installed your electricity fuel cost could decrease. But if all you are looking at is fuel cost there is little advantage of a LEAF over a Prius because of your high electric rates (due, in part, to the cost of oil-fired power stations). And if you drive at high speeds or inefficiently the LEAF fuel cost might be a bit more than a Prius.

 

[KJD]

Adding more PV is not an option right now. I'm still paying off the first system. 35 cents is the average rate a resident pays. The rates vary depending on time of day. TOU rates are available but I've yet to calculate to see if it will actually cost me more. TOU rates allow 6cents less than typical rates if used between 9pm-7am, 2 cents ABOVE typical rates from 7am-5pm and 5 cents ABOVE from 5pm to 9pm. House is busiest from 5-9 so I'm thinking I'd actually lose money. We also have separate metering option which would be the best option except I'd have too pay for installation. Right now, not doing to bad charging exclusively away from home.
The question is more so just to see where driving an EV wouldn't benefit much anymore. I'm not really comparing to other vehicles just calculating , based on cost, to see what the equivalent leaf mpg is. That mpg is around 50 and there are cars out there getting 50 mpg so why drive a leaf instead? Yes the prius may get bad mileage on the hills but so does the leaf.

If saving money is your only motivation, then I suggest you buy a mountain bike and a bus pass and forget owning a car of any kind.

Our house has a LEAF and a Prius both and the LEAF gets used a lot more just because it is more fun to drive. The low cost of electricity here is just a nice side benefit.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Bad driving affects performance of gas cars as well. In my opinion, the effect on a Prius is much more pronounced

 

[nsainfreek]

Thanks! Your comment is insightful, helpful and adds to the discussion. Clearly from my posts my main goal is to only save money. I think I'll even forgo your recommendations and just walk everywhere. Save money and get exercise!

Of course there are many ways to look at the benefits of usage of a vehicle and I happen to start a thread looking for insights on the financial benefits of owning one.

BTW, if having fun is your only motivation of driving a car, I recommend you not own EVs or hybrids and get a sports car.

If saving money is your only motivation, then I suggest you buy a mountain bike and a bus pass and forget owning a car of any kind.

Our house has a LEAF and a Prius both and the LEAF gets used a lot more just because it is more fun to drive. The low cost of electricity here is just a nice side benefit.

 

[nsainfreek]

I understand there are other benefits to owning an EV. Here in Hawaii, municipal parking lots allow free parking if you have an EV (although that will probably end when the law expires in 2016). I'm asking from a financial stand point since I feel that numbers are objective. When you start looking at other benefits I feel it gets subjective and then it becomes a balancing test. Which benefit is more important than the other? A quiet, smooth ride with torque available at 0 RPMs? Or the ability to drive close to empty without concern that I may get stuck in the middle of the road? I got down to about 15 miles left on the GOM driving into downtown Honolulu from Mililani today. It made me nervous and I thought about pulling over somewhere to charge and just hang out. It seemed like it'd be a waste of time for me so I just slowed down and tried to be more efficient. With a ICE I would be completely comfortable driving all the way down to the E marker on the gas tank before I felt that I needed to fill up. But this is just one of the problems with owning a Leaf. Despite all the pros there will be some tradeoffs. Here I'm just looking at the money to see if at what point will it not be worth. I mean the financials is something people consider when going for an EV. Generally it's about all the fuel costs that they'll be saving on.

Electricity rates in Hawaii are anything but stable. They are actually slowly, but steadily rising all the time. At least with gas prices there is a chance it'll go down. If utility rates go up, the odds of it going down are slim to none.

I have a 40 panel PV array. Haven't had it for a year yet so I can't confirm if my production is as expected. The winter months were obviously bad for production, but it's starting to pick up.

Ok, lets assume you drive at 5 miles/kWh, charge at L2 at 86% efficiency, and you are comparing to a 50 mpg Prius at $4.10/gallon.

That 5 miles/kWh ought to be pretty easy in your warm climate unless you drive mostly at 60+ mph, which I'm guessing you don't, given my experience with Honolulu. (If you would like to provide a speed profile of a typical trip I can come up with a better estimate.)

So, 5 miles/kWh x 86% = 4.3 miles/kWh from the wall.
4.3 miles/kWh = 0.233 kWh/mile
0.233 kWh/mile x 35¢/kWh = 8.1¢/mile

For the Prius:
50 miles/gallon = 0.02 gallons/mile
0.02 gallons/mile x $4.10/gallon = 8.2¢/mile

As you can see, the fuel cost is about the same. As others have said, there are other benefits to driving an electric car. Also, gas prices may increase but electricity rates are more likely to remain fairly stable. If you can someday get more PV installed your electricity fuel cost could decrease. But if all you are looking at is fuel cost there is little advantage of a LEAF over a Prius because of your high electric rates (due, in part, to the cost of oil-fired power stations). And if you drive at high speeds or inefficiently the LEAF fuel cost might be a bit more than a Prius.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

you accept the time it takes to stop and buy gas but dont accept the cost of gas.

you dont accept the time it takes to stop and charge but do accept the cost of that charge.

to truly answer your question; I say the price for quality of life is very high. Studies I have read in the past month or so.

** a significantly higher rate of respiratory and heart diseases for people living within 1500 feet of a Major Freeway (what is definition of a Minor Freeway? short length, only 4 lanes?...) strong indications point to exhaust as the likely culprit

** Every 6.2 years, Mankind dumps an "Exxon Valdez" magnitude oil spill into Puget Sound. This is NOT intentional dumping which is categorized and tracked separately. This is leakage from cars. yep, just a drop here and there that adds up to 7.5 Million quarts of oil annually.

You are in the same position we are except in a more extreme way. WA State does not have any oil. We have to buy it, import it, refine it. Then it gets sold. Most of that money leaves the state. It is the single largest drain of cash on our finances by far. (Oil and Oil by products constitute almost 35% of our total import costs) If not for the huge amount of money we get from selling airplanes and software, WA State would have been in a very seriously bad predicament.

Keep in mind, in any area where cash constantly must be spent to bring services in that it will surely erode your quality of life. It leaves less money to support everything else. It would be fabulous to think that what you pay at the pump provides every single penny needed to get that gas in your tank. It rarely works out that way. Because we have become so dependent on Oil, price shocks are mitigated by moving funds around within your state and local governments to soften the blow.

Your demand for gas helps keep the prices high forcing governments to pay more for the fuel they have to buy which raises your taxes but not in a good way or it cuts programs.

The 35 cents you save from every Kwh your PVs generate is just the beginning of the savings you will realize. The other savings is harder to see because you share that savings with your friends and neighbors. That is 35 less cents your PUD will need to ask for the next power plant upgrade. That is 35 less cents your school district will have to ask for in the next budget proposal.

Maybe I am wrong but it looks like you are struggling with this question. if you are looking for a tiebreaker I hope I have given you something to think about.

 

[Reddy]

....You are in the same position we are except in a more extreme way. WA State does not have any oil. We have to buy it, import it, refine it. Then it gets sold. Most of that money leaves the state. It is the single largest drain of cash on our finances by far. (Oil and Oil by products constitute almost 35% of our total import costs) If not for the huge amount of money we get from selling airplanes and software, WA State would have been in a very seriously bad....

Dave, thanks for that insight. I hadn't thought about it from the local/state level before, only national. I can't add much to this thread, except to agree with everyone's valid analysis. I've always felt "lucky" (if you will) to live in an area with very high gas prices and very low electricity. It makes the pure financial calculation much easier. In Hawaii, it looked pretty much like a wash (at least with the higher mileage Prius) and others have done the more exacting calculations.

However, I am conflicted on the use of "free" charging. Yes, it is important to have these stations being used. I meet new people and help spread the word about EVs every time I have charged outside the home. Around here, nobody really notices the car as being "special" unless it is charging. To use a charging station just because the electricity is free, runs counter to my sense of fairness. Even though we don't have many around here (I've used them when traveling out of the area), overuse will lead to congestion, the inability to get a charge when it's really needed, bad feelings amongst EVers and between EVers and ICErs, etc. My definition of "real need" is when I would have had to take a gas car to make the trip, thereby negating the positive benefits of the EV.

In my small town, there is no "real need" since I can make it clear across town and back from my own garage. Since I have always planned my trips to minimize distances, there was no extra concern added once I bought the Leaf. However, other drivers around here may easily exceed the Leaf's range. I've talked to folks with $500/mo gas bills, even though it's probably less than 25 miles across our "metroplex". For those folks, having charging stations would likely be a requirement.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I'm wondering how much would electricity have to cost before it outweighs owning an ICE or even a highly efficient hybrid. On these forums, I read people paying electric rates of around 7 cents/kwh up to around 13 cents/kwh. Here on Oahu, our effect residential electric rate last month was 35 cents/kwh and our only utility company is planned for more increases to come. I've been getting around 4.2 miles/kwh in my leaf and our gas prices are floating around $4.29/gallon. Using these numbers, I calculated the leaf getting a gas cost equivalent of 50mpg. The current Prius has an epa 51/48mpg so they are relatively close in efficiency here on Oahu (cost of electricity is higher on other islands).

Honestly, at these rates I figured my savings driving an EV would be minimal. In order to increase the benefit, I try to charge exclusively away from home which has been going pretty well. As fuel prices increase my savings will become greater but my cost of electricity is also steadily rising.

Thoughts?

Your numbers are off. 4.2 miles/kWh (if dash display), if you're getting 85% (75% if 120V charging) charge efficiency you are actually getting 3.6 miles per $.35. $4.29 gas means you buy 12.25 kWh for the same price, or 44 miles. This is basically right at the same as a Prius, except with range limitations, too.

I conclude that owning an EV in Hawaii is a bad idea. Your electricity rates are ghastly. You probably paid more for it than a Prius as well and the car is smaller. I feel it drives better, but I never, ever would have dumped my Prius if I had to pay much more than my current $.11 kWh.

If saving money is your only motivation, then I suggest you buy a mountain bike and a bus pass and forget owning a car of any kind.

This is a cop-out response. Just because somebody is inspecting the money behind a decision doesn't mean it is "the only motivation". EV proponents are not gaining any fans by ridiculing the monetary aspect of EV ownership. I bought one because I was able to make an economic argument for it. $.11 kWh plus disgustingly cheap lease. The money is important.

I used to see the exact same thing when I and others were looking into the fuel costs of a hybrid. The subjective arguments are not what the OP is interested in, nor will they compel him, if he's anything like me.

 

[jeremyz]

I'm not surprised that the cost of electricity in Hawaii is very high and volatile. From 30 seconds of googling, Hawaii produces about 75% of its electricity from oil. So you're basically fueling your Leaf with oil in Hawaii. That being said, the benefit of solar is so high that it seems insane that every rooftop in Hawaii isn't covered with solar panels. Hawaii is an ideal place for the marriage of electric cars with rooftop solar.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I'm not surprised that the cost of electricity in Hawaii is very high and volatile. From 30 seconds of googling, Hawaii produces about 75% of its electricity from oil. So you're basically fueling your Leaf with oil in Hawaii. That being said, the benefit of solar is so high that it seems insane that every rooftop in Hawaii isn't covered with solar panels. Hawaii is an ideal place for the marriage of electric cars with rooftop solar.

not insane at all...just greed. pure unadulterated greed