CHAdeMO losing the standards battle?

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan has a new ad for their No Charge to Charge promo and it features a prominent NISSAN branded quick charger with... a CCS handle.

Could the next-gen Leaf in some markets have a CCS port? It seems extremely strange to mock up a dual-standard quick charger with Nissan logos for an ad when there are Nissan-branded Sumitomo CHAdeMO QCs all over the place.

https://youtu.be/n_RyIdCJ7V0

PS: Not that it matters because nobody's gonna buy one, but add the Karma Revero to the CCS camp.

How many years of this craziness must we endure?

If you watch the video, you'll see the the charger is a BTC power unit with NRG/eVgo software. Some graphic artist forgot to change that. Obviously, this is NOT one of the chargers that Nissan did develop with Sumitomo, which have long since been discontinued.

The consumer won't even know that the other plug is "some other brand", or care.

 

[wmcbrine]

Nissan has a new ad for their No Charge to Charge promo and it features a prominent NISSAN branded quick charger with... a CCS handle.

Well, the driver clearly pulled out the CHAdeMO cord. I think it's just that most new DCQC stations, at least for now, will be dual-standard. And maybe that's just what they had handy.

 

[Marktm]

Every QC'r that I've used recently (last few months) in the Houston, TX area (three different locations) have recently been replaced with a "dual" connector - Chademo is one of them. Never paid any attention to the other.

 

[TimLee]

All the new ones going in here are dual standard.
Eventually there will be as many dual standard as CHAdeMO only.

 

[GRA]

So far this year, it appears there have been more cars sold/leased in the U.S. which are potentially or actually equipped with CCS than CHAdeMO :

CHAdeMO
LEAF: 7,922
Soul: 945
iMiEV: 65
Total: 8,932

CCS
i3: 5,372 (all equipped)
Spark: 2,404
e-Golf: 2,253
Total: 10,029

Did I forget any? With the Germans coming on strong and introducing more and more cars, plus Ford finally getting on board and the Bolt offering it from the get-go, and with CHAdeMO's use among other than Nissan cars seemingly shrinking, CCS does seem like it's set to 'win' in the not too distant future, at least here. Expected it would, as there's no great technical advantage to either one, so manufacturers will opt for the one that's cheapest (one receptacle and wiring harness instead of two) and takes up less real estate. CCS 1 or 2 will fit in the same hole (only the L1/2 part is different), so that shouldn't involve any more change than is typical for different market cars, far less than say RHD vs. LHD.

 

[mtndrew1]

So far this year, it appears there have been more cars sold/leased in the U.S., which are potentially or actually equipped with CCS than CHAdeMO :

CHAdeMO
LEAF: 7,922
Soul: 945
iMiEV: 65
Total: 8,932

CCS
i3: 5,372 (all equipped)
Spark: 2,404
e-Golf: 2,253
Total: 10,029

Did I forget any?

You forgot Tesla CHAdeMO adapters, but they're pricey and I've never actually seen one in use in the wild while charging my cars. But that's a huge potential installed base of CHAdeMO users.

Calendar 2017 has the Ioniq, Focus EV, Bolt EV, Karma Revero, and Clarity BEV added to the eGolf and i3 in the CCS camp. No CHAdeMO additions that I'm aware of.

Unless something turns quickly it will be Nissan vs. Everyone Else.

 

[smkettner]

The consumer won't even know that the other plug is "some other brand", or care.

As long as what you need is available.

 

[GRA]

So far this year, it appears there have been more cars sold/leased in the U.S., which are potentially or actually equipped with CCS than CHAdeMO :
<snip table>

Did I forget any?

You forgot Tesla CHAdeMO adapters, but they're pricey and I've never actually seen one in use in the wild while charging my cars. But that's a huge potential installed base of CHAdeMO users.

So I did. They cut the price from $1,000 to $450, and I know that some Tesla owners have them as I've read accounts on TMC of them being used, but have no idea how many might be out there. I doubt that many Model S/X owners balk at the price, but many have said that they'd need them so rarely it's not worth it, and often some TMC member who has one is willing to loan it for those rare trips. As the SC coverage grows I imagine fewer and fewer will get sold, but there'll likely be some for a while yet. The areas with CHAdeMO also tend to have SCs.

But calendar 2017 has the Ioniq, Focus EV, Bolt EV, Karma Revero, and Clarity BEV added to the eGolf, i3 in the CCS camp. No CHAdeMO additions that I'm aware of.

Unless something turns quickly it will be Nissan vs. Everyone Else.

Yeah, it does appear that we're either approaching or have already reached the tipping point here. CHAdeMO may eventually shrink to a Japan-only standard; perhaps GB/T will remain China-only, but with the size of their market that's plenty, and they may spread across Asia depending on the state of their relationship with their neighbors. At the moment, I don't see countries like the ROC, Vietnam, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, South Korea, the Philippines, etc. wanting to help advance a PRC standard given their disputes over control/sovereignty in the South and East China Seas. Oz is using CCS-1, and while they're a small market maybe the ASEAN nations will join them so they use a common standard. It would seem to be either that, CHAdeMO or GB/T. Japan's the closest non-Chinese major auto manufacturer for most of them (India for some).

 

[paulcone]

So far this year, it appears there have been more cars sold/leased in the U.S. which are potentially or actually equipped with CCS than CHAdeMO :

CHAdeMO
LEAF: 7,922
Soul: 945
iMiEV: 65
Total: 8,932

CCS
i3: 5,372 (all equipped)
Spark: 2,404
e-Golf: 2,253
Total: 10,029

Did I forget any? With the Germans coming on strong and introducing more and more cars, plus Ford finally getting on board and the Bolt offering it from the get-go, and with CHAdeMO's use among other than Nissan cars seemingly shrinking, CCS does seem like it's set to 'win' in the not too distant future, at least here. Expected it would, as there's no great technical advantage to either one, so manufacturers will opt for the one that's cheapest (one receptacle and wiring harness instead of two) and takes up less real estate. CCS 1 or 2 will fit in the same hole (only the L1/2 part is different), so that shouldn't involve any more change than is typical for different market cars, far less than say RHD vs. LHD.

You speak of the Bolt coming, but how easily you forget of the next-gen LEAF. You know it's coming even though it hasn't been announced yet, so likely LEAF numbers will jump up considerably.

 

[GRA]

So far this year, it appears there have been more cars sold/leased in the U.S. which are potentially or actually equipped with CCS than CHAdeMO :

CHAdeMO
LEAF: 7,922
Soul: 945
iMiEV: 65
Total: 8,932

CCS
i3: 5,372 (all equipped)
Spark: 2,404
e-Golf: 2,253
Total: 10,029

Did I forget any? With the Germans coming on strong and introducing more and more cars, plus Ford finally getting on board and the Bolt offering it from the get-go, and with CHAdeMO's use among other than Nissan cars seemingly shrinking, CCS does seem like it's set to 'win' in the not too distant future, at least here. Expected it would, as there's no great technical advantage to either one, so manufacturers will opt for the one that's cheapest (one receptacle and wiring harness instead of two) and takes up less real estate. CCS 1 or 2 will fit in the same hole (only the L1/2 part is different), so that shouldn't involve any more change than is typical for different market cars, far less than say RHD vs. LHD.

You speak of the Bolt coming, but how easily you forget of the next-gen LEAF. You know it's coming even though it hasn't been announced yet, so likely LEAF numbers will jump up considerably.

Whenever it does come, but a lot of former LEAF owners won't buy another car from Nissan owing to the company's behavior with the LEAF 1, and unless Nissan is going to put an active TMS in the car, even many of those who might consider a LEAF 2 but who live in areas where LEAF 1s have suffered unacceptable degradation will look elsewhere. Then there's the fact that the LEAF will be coming late to the party, so unless it's far better than the comparably-priced competition, IMO it's unlikely to see a major bump in sales.

 

[GlennD]

To me as a retired person neither option makes sense. My Leaf's had ChadeMo , my eGolf has CCS, and my B had neither. L2 was and is enough for me. In 22 months I put 8600 miles on my B.

For people like Tony fast charging makes sense since he is a traveler .

 

[WetEV]

Whenever it does come, but a lot of former LEAF owners won't buy another car from Nissan owing to the company's behavior with the LEAF 1, and unless Nissan is going to put an active TMS in the car, even many of those who might consider a LEAF 2 but who live in areas where LEAF 1s have suffered unacceptable degradation will look elsewhere. Then there's the fact that the LEAF will be coming late to the party, so unless it's far better than the comparably-priced competition, IMO it's unlikely to see a major bump in sales.

What a pile of FUD. We don't even know if the Leaf2 is "late to the party". Bolt isn't getting into customer hands until late this year. Leaf2 roll out will be much faster than Bolt roll out because Nissan is selling Leaf1 cars.

 

[GRA]

Whenever it does come, but a lot of former LEAF owners won't buy another car from Nissan owing to the company's behavior with the LEAF 1, and unless Nissan is going to put an active TMS in the car, even many of those who might consider a LEAF 2 but who live in areas where LEAF 1s have suffered unacceptable degradation will look elsewhere. Then there's the fact that the LEAF will be coming late to the party, so unless it's far better than the comparably-priced competition, IMO it's unlikely to see a major bump in sales.

What a pile of FUD. We don't even know if the Leaf2 is "late to the party". Bolt isn't getting into customer hands until late this year. Leaf2 roll out will be much faster than Bolt roll out because Nissan is selling Leaf1 cars.

You know when the LEAF 2 will arrive, based on some official statement of Nissan? They haven't said anything in Paris, so right now it looks as if it won't arrive until the 2018 MY at the earliest. I'd call that "coming late to the party," but YMMV. As to the lack of a TMS and past corporate behavior affecting future sales prospects, there've been ample examples of both expressed by current and former LEAF owners here.

 

[DanCar]

I expect Nissan to do better than GM because Nissan plans a family of Leaf cars. Smaller, than Bolt, compact, and small SUV. In the U.S. I expect the SUV to do better than the others.

 

[GRA]

I expect Nissan to do better than GM because Nissan plans a family of Leaf cars. Smaller, than Bolt, compact, and small SUV. In the U.S. I expect the SUV to do better than the others.

That assumes that GM doesn't have similar plans - granted, people've been asking for a small AWD Voltec CUV for the past 6 years without success, but I think they may have finally decided it's worth takng the chance. IMO VW is taking the best approach, with the common skateboard MEB platform:

What the Volkswagen I.D. concept tells us about the post-TDI future

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/30/volkswagen-id-meb-future-plans/

 

[TomT]

+10!

Whenever it does come, but a lot of former LEAF owners won't buy another car from Nissan owing to the company's behavior with the LEAF 1, and unless Nissan is going to put an active TMS in the car, even many of those who might consider a LEAF 2 but who live in areas where LEAF 1s have suffered unacceptable degradation will look elsewhere. Then there's the fact that the LEAF will be coming late to the party, so unless it's far better than the comparably-priced competition, IMO it's unlikely to see a major bump in sales.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Getting back to the topic, the new fast charging stations that EVgo has installed in my area all seem to have both CHAdeMo and SAE Combo, so maybe that's the wave of the near future: just put both chargers in a station and let the manufacturers keep choosing which to install. Sadly, they don't seem to have L-2, so I can just look at them until my next car...

 

[WetEV]

Whenever it does come, but a lot of former LEAF owners won't buy another car from Nissan owing to the company's behavior with the LEAF 1, and unless Nissan is going to put an active TMS in the car, even many of those who might consider a LEAF 2 but who live in areas where LEAF 1s have suffered unacceptable degradation will look elsewhere. Then there's the fact that the LEAF will be coming late to the party, so unless it's far better than the comparably-priced competition, IMO it's unlikely to see a major bump in sales.

What a pile of FUD. We don't even know if the Leaf2 is "late to the party". Bolt isn't getting into customer hands until late this year. Leaf2 roll out will be much faster than Bolt roll out because Nissan is selling Leaf1 cars.

You know when the LEAF 2 will arrive, based on some official statement of Nissan?

No, and you don't when LEAF2 will arrive either. Nissan isn't saying. I admit my ignorance. You claim you know. I'm not convinced.

They haven't said anything in Paris, so right now it looks as if it won't arrive until the 2018 MY at the earliest.

Is there some law that says that you must present a new car in Paris to if it is to roll out before a given date? Auto shows are less of a factor today than in the past. Ford skipped Paris completely.

As to the lack of a TMS

Those of us in cooler climates should prefer no TMS due to longer expected battery lifetime of a passively cooled battery in a cool climate. Hotter climates, the reverse.
Frequent road trippers have more reason to have a TMS (or at least active air cooling) due to frequent DCQC sessions. Commuters would more reason to have no TMS to reduce cost and improve reliability. And so on.
Future of battery development may alter this significantly as well. Longer battery life puts more preference on passive cooling. Larger battery packs mean more road trips and puts more preference on active cooling. Cheaper batteries puts more preference on passive cooling. All this and more will likely happen, but how much? The long term answer seems to me to be in doubt. Don't judge by LEAF 1.0 batteries, or even by the current LEAF batteries. You think you know the long term answer? I'm not convinced.

and past corporate behavior affecting future sales prospects, there've been ample examples of both expressed by current and former LEAF owners here.

Agree. Not that other corporations are much better. VW and diesels, ...

 

[GRA]

What a pile of FUD. We don't even know if the Leaf2 is "late to the party". Bolt isn't getting into customer hands until late this year. Leaf2 roll out will be much faster than Bolt roll out because Nissan is selling Leaf1 cars.

You know when the LEAF 2 will arrive, based on some official statement of Nissan?

No, and you don't when LEAF2 will arrive either. Nissan isn't saying. I admit my ignorance. You claim you know. I'm not convinced.

Nope, not claiming I know, I'm saying Nissan hasn't said squat about a near-term LEAF 2 intro, and any car that's going to be introduced within the next few months needs some word of mouth to build buzz in advance of launch, as well as to give the auto mags time to review the car. Neither has happened here.

They haven't said anything in Paris, so right now it looks as if it won't arrive until the 2018 MY at the earliest.

Is there some law that says that you must present a new car in Paris to if it is to roll out before a given date? Auto shows are less of a factor today than in the past. Ford skipped Paris completely.

See above. Ford sure did, as did several other manufacturers who had nothing new to introduce that they hadn't already talked about. Nissan introduced the new Micra, and that's it.

As to the lack of a TMS

Those of us in cooler climates should prefer no TMS due to longer expected battery lifetime of a passively cooled battery in a cool climate. Hotter climates, the reverse.
Frequent road trippers have more reason to have a TMS (or at least active air cooling) due to frequent DCQC sessions. Commuters would more reason to have no TMS to reduce cost and improve reliability. And so on.
Future of battery development may alter this significantly as well. Longer battery life puts more preference on passive cooling. Larger battery packs mean more road trips and puts more preference on active cooling. Cheaper batteries puts more preference on passive cooling. All this and more will likely happen, but how much? The long term answer seems to me to be in doubt. Don't judge by LEAF 1.0 batteries, or even by the current LEAF batteries. You think you know the long term answer? I'm not convinced.

I'm convinced that no company can afford to offer both passive and active cooling on the same model, and that if they're going to sell a car in the U.S.,one of the few continent-spanning countries with the range of climate types that goes along with that, it needs to be able to deal with all U.S. climates, or else have its sales limited to only those regions where it's suitable (as Nissan so signally failed to do with the LEAF), causing no end of grief to customers who believed their claim. The resulting bad PR and and pushback on them was wholly Nissan's fault. Contrast that with the Volt, which has seen nothing but positive customer response to its battery pack behavior, all because GM engineered the pack to deal with the whole variety of U.S. climates. The fact that it was over-engineered for some is just the cost of having a universally-salable product.

and past corporate behavior affecting future sales prospects, there've been ample examples of both expressed by current and former LEAF owners here.

Agree. Not that other corporations are much better. VW and diesels, ...

Oh, sure, I consider all corporations run by ethically-challenged, profit-driven slimeballs barring evidence to the contrary, but you'd think some of them would try to learn from their failures. The LEAF's pack design was certainly a failure here, or rather Nissan's marketing of it ensured it would fail. The ASCE defines a design failure as "an unacceptable difference between expected and demonstrated performance," and by any standard, Nissan's marketing claims of 100 mile range, 80% after five years and 70% after ten years guaranteed that the LEAF's pack design would be seen as a failure. That the design was adequate for the PNW, NW Europe and similar climates is by the by - that's not what Nissan claimed for it.

If Nissan were to again try to claim that a passively-cooled battery pack is suitable for use everywhere, given what we know about current battery chemistry, most of the LEAF owners who got burned the first time around will take a pass. If Nissan wants to back their claims with their own money, it's a different matter. They'd have to, because no one who experienced degradation 'failure' is likely to trust their word again.

 

[Jedlacks]

Getting back to the topic..

:lol: :lol: :lol: