Charging station location rant

[loomis2]

I have to get this of my chest. I live in Cincinnati which is centrally located around a bunch of other cities like Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington. The problem is all of them are farther away than the Leaf can go on a charge. There are plenty of charging locations in every one of those cities but for the most part there are ZERO places to charge in between those cities, which is exactly where the charging points should be.

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

 

[DaveInKansas]

I'd like to see a charging station in every county seat near the square, as well as any fairly popular destination town. At a minimum, at least a public 220/240v outlet to plug in.

I'm not holding my breath, however.

Someday.

 

[loomis2]

It's just that there are plenty of choices to charge your car in every major, or semi-major, city, but instead they should be BETWEEN every city.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

It's just that there are plenty of choices to charge your car in every major, or semi-major, city, but instead they should be BETWEEN every city.

The Leaf, Volt and other BEVs and PHEVs are primarily intended for in city commuting. The only BEV encouraging longer range use is Tesla, but with their much longer range you don't need as many. Tesla is rolling out superchargers nationwide.

All that said, I myself would like to be able to do a little longer trips cause we like the car so much. As you said there are only charge stations in major metro areas, so anything outside is off limits.

 

[TimLee]

It's just that there are plenty of choices to charge your car in every major, or semi-major, city, but instead they should be BETWEEN every city.

I concur with your dissatisfaction with this.
Even for the limited areas that the eVProject did under the stimulus funding, they didn't put them close enough together.
I took my LEAF one time from Chattanooga to Knoxville, and discovered that the DCFC in Athens is almost too far from the one in Farragut west of Knoxville at 65 mph interstate speed and with use of the heater. Recognized I was very marginal on getting to Farragut and turned the heater off for the last half of the trip to Farragut and slowed down to 60 mph. And this was with a 2011 LEAF that had probably only lost 10% to 12% capacity. With the eventual 70% capacity degradation, it would be very challenging to make the trip.
I think part of the difficulty with getting stations installed between the cities now that installations are mostly being funded by businesses willing to support them, is that the DCFC stations between cities will get limited use. If they're going to happen, it will take either government funding (which seems politically unlikely) or funding by a business that has an interest in putting them there (possibly Nissan, like Tesla is doing with their stations).
The overall average speed you can achieve with DCFC between cities with the LEAF 24 kWh (21.5 kWh available for use) battery is pretty low. My overall average speed from my house to a meeting in downtown Knoxville was 38 mph. And the battery was low at that point. Overall trip up and back was probably more like 30 mph.
I'm glad TN has the stations, and that I could get to Knoxville or Nashville, but it is primarily of use if you plan to spend at least 2 or 3 days in the other city. Then the time for charging on a vacation type trip isn't all that bad. But for myself and most people, using the LEAF for a short duration trip between cities isn't very reasonable.
And when I did the trip, the DCFC was free.
Now that Blink is charging $5 per session, the cost for electric will be the same or more than gasoline for my ICE. Probably more, because the stations are so far apart that you have to charge to 100%, and that will require two sessions because the 2011 LEAF stops before getting to 100% if you start with charge level <50%.
For me, I'm glad the DCFC is there in TN, but I will not be using it very much.

 

[DanCar]

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

Check back in 5 years, there will be plenty.

But by then you won't need them since your car will have 1000km range :
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUSPqRuN21M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
website: http://silexpower.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeah, I'm not putting any faith in silex claims.

 

[loomis2]

I would think a half dozen in every rest area would hep a lot. And at about the halfway point between Cincinnati and Columbus is an outlet mall that would be a great place to put in even more. I'm sure there are laces like that between most cities.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Yeah, this is very frustrating. The only DCQCs in NYS are in NYC. I'm not really sure how much that helps. Meanwhile, we have a major highway connecting 90% of the state's population - the NYS Thruway - with full-service rest stops every 35-40 miles. These are the perfect places to put in a bunch of DCQCs. Sure, I wouldn't want to drive NYC to Buffalo stopping every 40 miles, but it would make a day trip from Syracuse to Rochester and back a breeze. NYSERDA has a bunch of money specifically for improving the charging infrastructure, but whoever is making the decisions here doesn't drive an EV, and isn't listening to those that do.

 

[planet4ever]

I have to get this of my chest. I live in Cincinnati which is centrally located around a bunch of other cities like Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington. The problem is all of them are farther away than the Leaf can go on a charge. There are plenty of charging locations in every one of those cities but for the most part there are ZERO places to charge in between those cities, which is exactly where the charging points should be.

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

Cincinnati to Columbus and back is, what, about 215-220 miles? Since you got your car in January, I have to assume it's not a 2013, and that means you aren't going to get much more than 10 miles travel on I-71 for every hour of L2 charging. You are going to need to add about 150 miles, so that's up to 15 hours sitting at L2 charging stations.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound very practical to me. Strategically placed DC Quick Charges would help, but would still cost an extra hour and half for the round trip. Furthermore, with QC you really shouldn't try to go do something else in the area while the car is charging.

Yes, there are exceptions, and the numbers aren't nearly as bad for an overnight trip. But as dm33 said, the LEAF and most other BEVs really aren't designed as inter-city vehicles. (I don't go along with including the Volt or PHEVs in that list, because they can be used as conventional hybrids on long trips.)

Bottom line: I think it would be a waste of money today to try to build a network of L2 charging stations between cities. Once we get to the point that 10% of the cars on the road are BEVs that could all change, but we have no idea now what the future holds - better battery technology or battery swap or fuel cells or who knows what else might completely change the equation.

Ray

 

[loomis2]

Yeah, I realize that the entire trip to Columbus and back is still unrealistic, but the outlet mall at the halfway point would be totally doable with any form of charging infrastructure. It is about 50 miles each direction and there is plenty to do while the car is recharging. If there were charging stations at rest stops you could even get a boost in between so you wouldn't be pushing the range as much.

And what does someone do if they had to move to a different city? Let's say Cincinnati to Cleveland, which is about a four hour drive with Columbus being the halfway point. It would certainly be a long trip to make in a Leaf, but it would at least be possible.

I just joined these boards about a week ago, which is when I got my new 2013 Leaf. I may have to check my profile if it says I purchased it on January. Still, I love polling the members here whenever I have a Leaf-ish question. You guys make great conversation!

 

[RegGuheert]

My preferences for public charging infrastructure:

L1: Airports (plus perhaps L3 in hourly lots)
L2: Workplace, hotels, malls, restaurants, movie theaters.
L3: At 25-mile intervals (or at in rest areas) between cities (as OP says)

I also prefer L2 at home, since it allows us to manage the battery at a lower SOC and still charge enough as needed to get to our destination.

 

[jlsoaz]

I have to get this of my chest. I live in Cincinnati which is centrally located around a bunch of other cities like Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington. The problem is all of them are farther away than the Leaf can go on a charge. There are plenty of charging locations in every one of those cities but for the most part there are ZERO places to charge in between those cities, which is exactly where the charging points should be.

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

Kind of agree on this. There are perhaps some companies that are focused on correcting this (and the inter-city chargers should offer Quick-Charge), but not soon enough I think for many of us.

 

[TimLee]

I think it would be a waste of money today to try to build a network of L2 charging stations between cities.
Ray

I don't think anyone was advocating L2 between cities.
A few at an outlet mall 50 miles from a major city might make sense.
But in general what is needed between cities is DCFC.
In general I think L2 even in cities is a bit of a waste of money. What modest range electric vehicles need both between cities and in cities is DCFC.
At least Nissan and Tesla recognize that.
I'm not sure what the others making modest range electric vehicles with no DCFC are thinking. Not the best concept.

 

[apvbguy]

I have to get this of my chest. I live in Cincinnati which is centrally located around a bunch of other cities like Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington. The problem is all of them are farther away than the Leaf can go on a charge. There are plenty of charging locations in every one of those cities but for the most part there are ZERO places to charge in between those cities, which is exactly where the charging points should be.

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

you are asking the LEAF to perform beyond it's capabilities, it was designed to be a local vehicle not a long distance traveler.
if you want an EV that can travel those distances you need a Tesla

 

[DanCar]

... if you want an EV that can travel those distances you need a Tesla

Or we need a trailer generator. http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-11/pru-trailer-adds-storage-space-and-700-extra-miles-range-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[loomis2]

There are not many places in Cincinnati that I can't get to and home again on a single charge. I would imagine that is true for a lot of people. So I may never use any of the chargers around town for as long as I own the car. If there were chargers at destinations outside of the city then the use case for the car grows quite a bit. Just having charging stations in major metropolitan areas cripples the appeal of electric cars in general. True, you may never be able to take a Leaf to a destination four hours away but we need to think a little bigger than we currently are.

Kings Island is an amusement park just outside of town. I can get there and back on a single charge, but what if you lived 50 miles away? If they had chargers available in their lots why wouldn't you take the Leaf? The same can be said for sporting events or concerts. If it is a place that people would generally spend at least a few hours visiting then they should have electric chargers. I consider all of that to be the use case for the Leaf.

A lot of this is the chicken-and-egg syndrome. People won't buy the cars until there are reliable ways to charge them and they won't build the chargers until there are more cars bought to justify them.

 

[dgpcolorado]

There are not many places in Cincinnati that I can't get to and home again on a single charge...

While that may be true now, it may change as your battery ages. Can you still make all the trips in your city when your battery is degraded to 80%? 70%? If you are on a two year lease it may not matter but otherwise you might come to appreciate those charge stations. I wish there was an L2 charge station in the city where I do my grocery shopping because in another winter or two I won't be able to make the 65 mile trips (with 2500 feet of elevation change) without some sort of brief interim charge.

On a more general note: who pays for all the intercity charge stations? They aren't going to get used enough to make a private pay-for-charge business model work; no way, not a chance! Should taxpayers pick up the tab? Why?

Something to think about.

 

[ksnogas2112]

Get the EVSE upgrade and go RV'ing. At least that's my plan for next summer, charging at RV parks.

 

[gigglehertz]

Along the same lines, I'd like to say that there has been no national plan for EV infrastructure. The EV project was great, IF you were an early adopter living in one of a small handfull of cities. Since then it's been up to states, cities, and private businesses all going their own way. Badly. How many times are we going to hear politicians say something along the lines of "we need to begin to..." something related to clean energy or transportation. A great applause line, good green press, then nothing. Why is it that a startup like Tesla can come up with, and begin rolling out, a nationwide infrastructure of fast chargers, whereas the major automakers and the fed govt are totally silent? OK, the big 3 came up with the combo plug. Awesome. What's your plan? Who's installing them? Where? Silence. Crickets. At least Nissan has said they will install a few hundred. Somewhere. At some point.

When my lease runs out in a couple of years and the rebate fueled $199/mo lease craze winds down, what $30k car do I buy, not knowing what quick charge standard wins out, or if any more are installed where I need them? I may very well have to end up moving in a couple of years to be closer to EV infrastructure - especially since I'm in a condo now, and the chances of me being able to afford a single family home with garage in this area (min $300k) is about zero.

 

[loomis2]

Since starting this thread I have actually email the company that runs the outlet mall about putting in some chargers. The funny thing is I am not someone who actually wants to go to the outlet mall, it's just that every time I drive past it I think how it would be an obvious choice to have them. For all I know the thought has never crossed their minds before and this may get the ball rolling somewhat. Or nothing may come of it, who knows?

What we need is one of the big national chains like Walmart or McDonalds to embrace this and really get it going. I just don't know if it worth it for them financially since they aren't really hurting for business as it is.