Charging station location rant

[CMYK4Life]

I agree more L2 chargers between cities! If the round trip is less than 160miles I always think Leaf first.

We often go 50-80 miles east of us to see friends and family. Because most of our friends and family dont live within walking distance of a L2 station we usually only have L1 available at our destination. We do L1 charge as we visit but to get home the same day it requires us to stop at a L2 station on the way back.

Since our friends live in a somewhat concentrated geographic area we frequent a this small town and call it 'our gateway to the east' because it is about mid way to many of our frequent destonations. We usually stop for an hour to L2 charge (6.6kw) and grab coffee, ice cream, walk in the park, a beer, dinner, whatever we feel like doing; there is a lot to do.

There are several little towns with a street or two of shops, resturants, and parks between my house and anywhere I want to go. If there were L2 charging at these locations maybe we could also have little gateways to the north, south, and west too!

Or, I could just get in our ICE car and blow past these small towns and only know them as highway exits with 'TacoBell gas stations' like I do now.

 

[planet4ever]

Since starting this thread I have actually email the company that runs the outlet mall about putting in some chargers. The funny thing is I am not someone who actually wants to go to the outlet mall, it's just that every time I drive past it I think how it would be an obvious choice to have them. For all I know the thought has never crossed their minds before and this may get the ball rolling somewhat. Or nothing may come of it, who knows?

Two years ago I emailed the company that runs Gilroy Premium Outlets. They responded that they hadn't considered it, but would look into the possibility. They now have two J1772 charging stations and four (or more?) Tesla Superchargers. I don't know how much of that was due to my emails, but it couldn't hurt. By the way, in a followup note I thanked them for their interest and suggested two specific areas close to the side or back of buildings that would have good electrical access without taking prime parking spaces. They went with one of my two suggestions.

Ray

 

[jlsoaz]

On a more general note: who pays for all the intercity charge stations? They aren't going to get used enough to make a private pay-for-charge business model work; no way, not a chance! Should taxpayers pick up the tab? Why?

Something to think about.

It does seem like a question to think about, but perhaps a good follow-on question would be to ask who is paying for the gas stations? I've always heard that, as a generalization, they don't make much on gas but make money on the convenience store items. The business model pitches I've heard for public networked paid L2 and Quick-charge seem to centralize around losing money or not making much on the charge but also drawing people in to spend money on the nearby services and goods while they wait.

I've also noticed a couple of gas stations in my area have gone out of business and staid shuttered over the last few years. I think I read a year or two ago perhaps that nationally the number peaked at some point and then consolidated..... something like that.

Addendum:

Anyway, I've said to folks many times when trying to get them to install a public L2 in this county (no success yet, but some good nibbles) that the selling point is to understand it might be good for certain destination points. To give them an idea, I estimate about $4.50 spent on a charge at the L2 on my way home from Tucson and usually about $10 to $20 spent on food and other stuff while I'm waiting. The point (in that case) isn't just the money maybe to be made on a parking/charge event, it's the money to make on the shoppers and those generally waiting for charge, drinking coffee, using wifi, etc.

There's also still perhaps work to do to address laws which basically prevent resale of electricity still in some states and I think thus basically inhibit (some of) the entrepreneurial push.

 

[caffeinekid]

We actually have L3 chargers at pretty good locations here around Houston, Tx., but there are still certain suburban commutes which require no less than an L3 unless you have time for an L2 charge at your destination....assuming it has a charger. And there is certainly no shortage of L2 points either but, as others have stated, they are not often at locations where you can kill some time. Even more to the topic, there are ZERO L3 charging stations between Houston and Austin, San Antonio or Dallas - the so-called "Gulf Coast Triangle."

Why is this?

The way I see it, the subsidies have been used up (Blink, NRG, Chargepoint, etc.) and no one is really interested in attributing profit towards a sane plan forward that considers our environment. And given the current "economic" model, why should they? I have come to understand that all of these debates, considerations and opinions about "why" no one shares our vision are wasted time without considering that it is the current monetary system itself that not only stymies any real progress, but actually perpetuates and accelerates the ills we face socially and environmentally. In other words, as long as we rely on a profit motive, there will be minimal adoption at best of (among many things) electric infrastructure, so get used to it. True efficiency antiquates staid interests such as petrol energy, military conquest and aggression. Inefficiency is by its very definition profitable as profit implies inefficiency at some level, in some way.

 

[LEAFguy]

Keep in mind that new electric vehicles (EVs) have only been around in volume (and relatively low volume at that) since the LEAF came out in December 2010. If we take a look back about 100 years, this is what the gas station infrastructure looked like (according to University of Houston's Engines of our Ingenuity radio program broadcast on NPR (transcript found here)) -

The gas station started taking shape around 1910. By 1920 it was well-defined. It was a small building with gas pumps in front. But it also offered supplies -- tires, batteries, and oil. It offered simple services -- lube jobs and tire patching.

In 1920, America had 15,000 gas stations and only half that number of curbside pumps. By 1930, we had over 100,000 gas stations, and curbside pumps had all but vanished.

According to Wikipedia the first purpose built gas station was in St. Louis in 1905, the second in Seattle in 1907. In other words, it took two years to build two stations, and fifteen years to build out 15,000 gas stations. We are almost halfway to that number in three years. According to the U.S. Department of Energy there are currently 6,037 Level 2 and Level 3 charge stations in the United States (found here).

Granted, a century has past so we would hope that we can develop EV charge stations at a faster pace than that of gas station development, but we are truly in the embryonic stage of the new EV. In certain markets the LEAF is the best selling Nissan, but in others it is still not available for sale. We will see continued improvements in the development of the EV infrastructure, but it will likely not come fast enough to satisfy all EV owners.

 

[loomis2]

LEAFGuy, I see where you're coming from historically, but one thing you should keep in mind is gasoline as a common fuel was a new thing and the only thing that really required it was automobiles. It had to all be built from scratch. Electricity is prevalent everywhere already so building this type of infrastructure is really mostly already complete, in infinitely more locations than just gas stations. Heck, I put a level 2 charger in my garage by myself and it only took me about a half hour.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

And, charge stations need no attendant, a hugh cost savings over gas stations.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

From today's PluginCars.com story on fuel cell cars:

"But the mandate is for zero emission, not electric cars, and California has made it clear it’s equally receptive to hydrogen vehicles, which get the same ZEV credits and are basically EVs with onboard chemical factories instead of batteries. A major problem is infrastructure, with hydrogen stations costing $1 to $2 million each, but G.M. and Honda (which are working together on fuel cells) are backing California legislation that would see the state subsidizing 50 to 65 percent of the cost of the first 100 hydrogen stations in the state."

So, how many QC's would $100,000,000 buy?

 

[RonDawg]

LEAFGuy, I see where you're coming from historically, but one thing you should keep in mind is gasoline as a common fuel was a new thing and the only thing that really required it was automobiles. It had to all be built from scratch. Electricity is prevalent everywhere already so building this type of infrastructure is really mostly already complete, in infinitely more locations than just gas stations. Heck, I put a level 2 charger in my garage by myself and it only took me about a half hour.

While the electric infrastructure is present, that last component (EV charging stations) still needs to be built. Prior to the invention of the gasoline pumping station, automobile drivers bought their fuel in cans from the general store. I suspect in remote parts of the world, it's still that way. The fueling station just made that process a lot easier and more convenient.

We also need a lot more charging stations simply because current technology has not matched the ease and speed of refueling a car that needs a flammable liquid to run. Nobody would like to wait 30+ minutes for their turn at the pump (except at Costco when fuel prices skyrocket), but even with CHAdeMO that's what would happen if multiple people line up at the same time for the same EV charging station.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

One advantage to having EVSE in the city is that people living in a wide radius can come in and charge while in town.

Might not be worth moving to a midpoint location, but it's a start.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

We also need a lot more charging stations simply because current technology has not matched the ease and speed of refueling a car that needs a flammable liquid to run. Nobody would like to wait 30+ minutes for their turn at the pump (except at Costco when fuel prices skyrocket), but even with CHAdeMO that's what would happen if multiple people line up at the same time for the same EV charging station.

Why the Tesla model of expandable, multiple stations is better, at high traffic locations.

 

[Reddy]

We also need a lot more charging stations simply because current technology has not matched the ease and speed of refueling a car that needs a flammable liquid to run. Nobody would like to wait 30+ minutes for their turn at the pump (except at Costco when fuel prices skyrocket), but even with CHAdeMO that's what would happen if multiple people line up at the same time for the same EV charging station.

Why the Tesla model of expandable, multiple stations is better, at high traffic locations.

Apparently it's not that hard to do, at least on Maui. Here are four CHAdeMO DCQCs:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...o-Update/page2?p=318390&viewfull=1#post318390

 

[EVerlasting]

I have to get this of my chest. I live in Cincinnati which is centrally located around a bunch of other cities like Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington. The problem is all of them are farther away than the Leaf can go on a charge. There are plenty of charging locations in every one of those cities but for the most part there are ZERO places to charge in between those cities, which is exactly where the charging points should be.

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

We have the same problem in New Jersey. (BTW: Even if there are charging stations along highways and interstates, if they are Level 2 stations, then its almost just as pathetic as not having any charging stations at all because it would take many hours to recharge. What is required are Level 3 DC fast chargers along highways and interstates.) NJ is a fairly small state. One can drive from the New York State Border in the north, down to Delaware border in the south in a few hours. Unfortunately, three years since major electric cars have been launched, there are ZERO DC fast charge stations on any highways. Actually, there are none in the entire north east according to current ChargePoint map and other charging network maps. If NJ gets DC fast charge stations at rest stops along the interstates and highways, EV drivers can drive all around NJ with ease. Even the famed Jersey shore towns have none. EV folks on the West Coast are so lucky. We here on the East Coast are still living in the EV stone age. If not for the Level 2 charging stations in Nissan Dealerships, the maps here would look mostly empty.

 

[TomT]

Yep, I consider L2 stations to be of basically no value at any place where you are likely to stop of your own volition for less than a few hours!
L3 QCDC is the only thing that makes sense along highways and interstates and at many destinations! L2 in many cases is nothing more than a scam...

Even if there are charging stations along highways and interstates, if they are Level 2 stations, then its almost just as pathetic as not having any charging stations at all because it would take many hours to recharge.

 

[mwalsh]

Even if there are charging stations along highways and interstates, if they are Level 2 stations, then its almost just as pathetic as not having any charging stations at all because it would take many hours to recharge.

With 6.6kW charging they start to make more sense, chopping what would be a three-plus hour ordeal into a long, leisurely lunch stop.

Since the upgrade is obviously no-go via Nissan, it's probably something I'll pursue on my own (if I decide not to extend my warranty and can find someplace selling a kit and/or providing installation).

 

[Randy]

I have to get this of my chest. I live in Cincinnati which is centrally located around a bunch of other cities like Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington. The problem is all of them are farther away than the Leaf can go on a charge. There are plenty of charging locations in every one of those cities but for the most part there are ZERO places to charge in between those cities, which is exactly where the charging points should be.

There should be a half dozen stops in between Cincinnati and Columbus for electric vehicles to charge up. Instead there are none. Makes no sense!

We have the same problem in New Jersey. (BTW: Even if there are charging stations along highways and interstates, if they are Level 2 stations, then its almost just as pathetic as not having any charging stations at all because it would take many hours to recharge. What is required are Level 3 DC fast chargers along highways and interstates.) NJ is a fairly small state. One can drive from the New York State Border in the north, down to Delaware border in the south in a few hours. Unfortunately, three years since major electric cars have been launched, there are ZERO DC fast charge stations on any highways. Actually, there are none in the entire north east according to current ChargePoint map and other charging network maps. If NJ gets DC fast charge stations at rest stops along the interstates and highways, EV drivers can drive all around NJ with ease. Even the famed Jersey shore towns have none. EV folks on the West Coast are so lucky. We here on the East Coast are still living in the EV stone age. If not for the Level 2 charging stations in Nissan Dealerships, the maps here would look mostly empty.

Sorry to say, but the dearth of DC Fast Charge Stations (aside from government money funding) is really just an indication that there is no business model that would allow cost recovery (much less any profit). You see people complaining about ECOtality trying to charge $5 for a DC FC session here in the west? Depending on volume at the charging station, that is about 25% of what it costs to pay for the operational costs of each of the charging sessions in a month (at least here in California) on a modestly used station...

How about a group of you in the region pooling your funds to purchase a DC FC unit in a strategic spot and getting a sympathetic host to agree to cover or subsidize the electric bill? That is what I would do if I needed one...It seems to be the best solution right now (absent a government grant program paying for it)...

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yep, I consider L2 stations to be of basically no value at any place where you are likely to stop of your own volition for less than a few hours!
L3 QCDC is the only thing that makes sense along highways and interstates and at many destinations! L2 in many cases is nothing more than a scam...

As someone who has zero L2 stations withing LEAF range I vehemently disagree. A couple of L2 stations would be of great benefit to me when I am trying to stretch my range in winter as my battery degrades. I think what is being overlooked is that one doesn't have to fill the car, taking hours to do so, to have L2 opportunity charging be beneficial. If I need an additional ten miles to make it home comfortably and am getting about 4 miles/kWh, that works out to about 45 minutes at 3.3 kW (and about 25 minutes at 6.0 kW for 2013 owners with the faster charger). That would be very helpful to keep my car going for several years longer, even with a degraded battery.

Yes, L2 charging isn't practical for doubling the range, or something like that, unless one is going to be parked a long time anyway, such as at a workplace. But short L2 opportunity charges can help a lot to extend the range a little bit to make up for declining battery capacity. (An L2 charge station at a grocery store would be ideal, in my case.)

So, it bugs me when those who have a plethora of L2 charge stations where they live continually knock them as being useless. I wish I had some here! It would make planning for the future a lot easier.

 

[davewill]

Yep, I consider L2 stations to be of basically no value at any place where you are likely to stop of your own volition for less than a few hours!
L3 QCDC is the only thing that makes sense along highways and interstates and at many destinations! L2 in many cases is nothing more than a scam...

As someone who has zero L2 stations withing LEAF range I vehemently disagree. A couple of L2 stations would be of great benefit to me when I am trying to stretch my range in winter as my battery degrades. I think what is being overlooked is that one doesn't have to fill the car, taking hours to do so, to have L2 opportunity charging be beneficial. If I need an additional ten miles to make it home comfortably and am getting about 4 miles/kWh, that works out to about 45 minutes at 3.3 kW (and about 25 minutes at 6.0 kW for 2013 owners with the faster charger). That would be very helpful to keep my car going for several years longer, even with a degraded battery. ...

Agree 100%. They just added a charge station where I often eat breakfast or lunch on work days. I've had several days recently where getting an hour of charge has made an extra errand doable.

 

[Reddy]

Yep, I consider L2 stations to be of basically no value at any place where you are likely to stop of your own volition for less than a few hours!

...So, it bugs me when those who have a plethora of L2 charge stations where they live continually knock them as being useless. I wish I had some here! It would make planning for the future a lot easier.

Let's start a L2 gifting program. All those who dislike them, please send them over to those of us in the unwashed masses outside of the large metropolitan areas. Much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[DVCRobin]

While I bought my Leaf primarily for driving the 6 miles to and from work. I was worried about giving up a long distance car. We have another car, but what if I had to drive to my mom's house 180 miles away at the drop of a hat. Well I looked at the Blink stations between Nashville and Knoxville and there are 3 evenly spaced DCFC stations between approximately 50 miles apart. I guess I am lucky. Now if I tried to head in any other direction from Nashville, I am out of luck. None to be found. Looks like they are starting to put some charging stations in a few areas. Good luck, I hope they add some to your area soon.

BTW I just bought it this weekend and am so happy with it.