Considering Buying a Used Leaf - Wopper of a Drive

[LeftieBiker]

The problem with both size Leaf packs is that they would cook doing that commute - quickly, as you know. It hasn't really become clear yet just how much worse the 30kwh packs are in extreme heat than the Lizard pack, but even given the same chemistry, the higher density works against them.

The OP needs to make a tough choice: a two hour commute (vs how long with HOV access? One hour?) with a car that can do at least most if it as an EV, or a shorter commute with a full EV - and the constant threat of running out of charge looming.

One last option: scour the country for a used 2017 Bolt. The seats are comfortable by motorcycle standards, and one with no DCFC or heated seats and steering wheel just might be affordable, with some haggling...

 

[SageBrush]

I don't know why the commute takes so long for under 40 miles although the existence of a HOV lane suggests road congestion. Personally, I would be thinking of

1. Commuting with others
2. Shifting my work hours
3. Moving closer to work

OP can correct me if needed but I don't get the impression that he cares about EV ownership per se; my impression is that he is considering it as a means to to improve the safety, comfort, and time of his commute.

 

[GerryAZ]

Actually, highway driving is no worse for LEAF battery temperature than city driving in this climate (there are no long, steep hills on the freeways around Phoenix to add extra heat from high discharge rates). A 2015 Leaf imported from a cooler climate with little battery deterioration could make the one-way commute for a few years (would require full L2 charging at work); a 30 kWh Leaf could make the commute through the duration of the 100,000-mile warranty with some workplace charging (120-volt receptacle would be sufficient); a 40 kWh or more Leaf could probably make the round-trip commute for the duration of the 100,000-mile warranty. The only other EVs with sufficient range for the round trip that are readily available here are the Bolt, Teslas (any current model), and Jaguar. The BMW i3 (later models with larger battery) could make one-way commute (would require L2 charging at work).

Congestion is the issue. HOV lanes are restricted to 2 or more people in a regular vehicle, HOV plates, and motorcycles from 6:00 AM to 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM to 7:00 PM on weekdays. They are considered as regular lanes at all other times. Traffic is heavy well before and after those times so shifting work times by an hour or two, if possible, is not all that helpful. Most jobs are in the surrounding cities, as opposed to downtown, so traffic is across the urban area rather than toward the city center. Many dual-income households have one long commute and one shorter commute regardless of where they live.

 

[SageBrush]

What is the power draw of A/C while at e.g. 25 mph on a sunny day and 115F ?
I would budget 3 kW for steady state and another 2 kWh to expel retained heat. So a 2 hour commute might include 10 kWh just for A/C.

I'm not sure about the precice amounts but it is A/C use in this environment that makes the 24 or 30 kWh LEAF a bad choice.

 

[powersurge]

I cant get it how people that are the least candidates (in this case live in the hottest areas and want to travel for really long distances) for an EV are the ones who want to get one...

Common sense alone says.... Maybe it is not a good idea?? Like Horror movies... Don't go into a basement full of chain saws....

 

[LeftieBiker]

Actually, highway driving is no worse for LEAF battery temperature than city driving in this climate (there are no long, steep hills on the freeways around Phoenix to add extra heat from high discharge rates).

Assuming that it cools off at night, then blowing lots of 110+F air over the pack on the highway may be worse than driving slowly in the city, with the pack's mass keeping it cooler - again assuming that it starts off cooler. At any rate, I'm not going to recommend that scenario (2015 Leaf) to the OP, especially since he doesn't seem to actually have L-2 charging at work. A 30kwh Leaf might do the job, but again, without knowing how fast it would degrade, I'm going to keep suggesting that the OP avoid the Leaf.

 

[PonderingLeafAZ]

Well I'm perplexed by the entire conversation... I carpooled last summer about 2/3 of the time, but my carpool partner left. BTW, when all you have is a motorcycle, carpool conversations become quite amusing. No one seems to want to ride on the back in the heat

Here is a question: It would be worth it for me to stop every day and do a quick charge, say kick back for 30 minutes if I could find a charging station.

Finally, it's really about 43 miles each way. Yes, Peoria to Mesa is a little less, but I have to drive to get to and from the freeway.

My parents are aging and life a mile from my house. I really don't feel like I can move to the other side of town, and I felt for sure that the Leaf would be the perfect solution.

Any thoughts on charging half way home? That way if it was close, I would go for it, and if not, I could charge.

 

[GerryAZ]

A few more comments or observations:
1. Air conditioning in the Leaf is quite efficient. It may draw 2.5 to 3 kW for a little while to cool down, but then drops to anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5 kW depending upon ambient temperature. Therefore, the range impact is only a few miles over the course of a full charge. These numbers are for my silver 2015 with black leather interior, the silver 2011 used less energy for A/C because the light colored interior absorbed less heat from the sun. A black or other dark color car would likely draw a little more power for A/C.
2. Most heat gain for the battery comes from parking or slow driving on black pavement that has absorbed heat from direct sun exposure. I routinely see battery temperature increase after exiting the freeway while stopped in traffic or driving slower on surface streets. It is best to park on concrete, other light colored surfaces, or pavement that has been shaded. The body of the car offers shade so the pavement does not absorb heat and radiate it back to the battery if the car is parked in the morning and not moved until ready to leave.
3. My comments regarding range and charging in earlier posts take normal A/C use into account--my commute is 26 miles each way (20 on the freeway with surface and neighborhood streets at each end). I like to be comfortable so the A/C gets used without concern for range impact.
4. My 2015 has a little over 75,000 miles so far on the original battery. I have already saved more than enough in fuel costs to pay for a replacement battery complete with installation so the economics make sense for me.
5. Compressed natural gas vehicles qualify for HOV plates so that might be another possibility. There is commercial fueling infrastructure in the area, but I don't know if it would be possible for an individual to get an account for a passenger car. I know some manufacturers offered CNG passenger cars in other areas, but don't know if you could get one shipped here. Service and repair might be issues since they were never sold here.

 

[Lothsahn]

Well I'm perplexed by the entire conversation... I carpooled last summer about 2/3 of the time, but my carpool partner left. BTW, when all you have is a motorcycle, carpool conversations become quite amusing. No one seems to want to ride on the back in the heat

Here is a question: It would be worth it for me to stop every day and do a quick charge, say kick back for 30 minutes if I could find a charging station.

Finally, it's really about 43 miles each way. Yes, Peoria to Mesa is a little less, but I have to drive to get to and from the freeway.

My parents are aging and life a mile from my house. I really don't feel like I can move to the other side of town, and I felt for sure that the Leaf would be the perfect solution.

Any thoughts on charging half way home? That way if it was close, I would go for it, and if not, I could charge.

There are 3 charging levels:
L1: 110v - very slow (3 miles/h)
L2: 240V - 6.6 kW (24 miles/h)
Quick charge: (around 1h for a 80% charge)

L1 charging is too slow. L2 charging would work. You DO NOT want to quick charge in the AZ heat. The battery will already degrade quickly from the heat... QCing at that temperature would be very bad.

So if you found a bar or place to chill at on the way home, that could add 24mi of range in a one hour visit and beat sitting in traffic for 2 hours. You should check chargepoint.com for stations as there are a few... but not a lot. If you do this, make sure the leaf has a 6.6kW charger (in the car).

What you can't do is sit in the Leaf when it charges. My Leaf's AC overheated and shut down in 95F after an hour or two. It would overheat very quickly at AZ temps. It simply doesn't have a good enough fan to cool off I'd the car is stationary in those temps. The AC also draws 3-4KW when not moving and overheating, severely reducing your charge rate.

If you must, I would do the 40kWh Leaf. You really aren't going to be happy with a 30. Any range loss will require a stop. A 24 can't make the trip. At least with the 40, by the time you MUST stop to charge, you'll be eligible for a free battery.

I'm glad you want to do the EV thing... I think that EVs are pushing towards the possibility of a carbon-minimal transport and we're all big EV evangelists. But we also want you to be happy and I don't think you will be, unless it's a brand new 40kWh with a good warranty. That pack is going to need replacement...

Could you get work to install a L2 charger for you?

(Edited to remove volt recommendation based on 2nd page comments about AZ HOV)

 

[LeftieBiker]

Quick charge: (around 1h for a 80% charge)

The time is actually about 30 minutes to 80% for a 24kwh Leaf, unless it's a really slow QC station. This adds substantial heat, though, so the battery gets cooked even faster if you QC.

 

[GerryAZ]

What you can't do is sit in the Leaf when it charges. My Leaf's AC overheated and shut down in 95F after an hour or two. It would overheat very quickly at AZ temps. It simply doesn't have a good enough fan to cool off I'd the car is stationary in those temps. The AC also draws 3-4KW when not moving and overheating, severely reducing your charge rate.

There must be something wrong with the A/C in your car. What you describe is not normal. I have used both 2011 and 2015 as portable offices--sitting in the car doing paperwork or typing on a computer for extended time and never had the A/C shut down. You may want to check the radiator cooling fans--compressor power consumption will be much higher and cooling performance will be marginal if there is not enough air flow through the condenser. The compressor may draw 3 to 4 kW for a few minutes if the interior is really hot from being parked in the sun, but the power consumption soon tapers down to somewhere between 0.5 and 2 kW, depending upon ambient temperatures.

There is an operating condition that is only noticeable when ambient temperature is high. The maximum compressor speed (and hence cooling output) is limited when vehicle speed is less than 18 mi/hr (early software update on 2011 which is also included in control systems on later models) so it takes a little longer to initially cool down the interior if you are not driving above that speed. It is not noticeable once the car is cooled down so it does not impact my use of the car as a portable office. Also, I frequently use the A/C while charging at DCQC stations without concern.

 

[PonderingLeafAZ]

I've been discussing the idea of a charger, but the reaction is "Great Idea"! and then crickets. In other words, I think they are humoring me. Since half my department is running software that I wrote, maybe I could hold that over them ...

Interestingly, a guy who has sold me cars in the past just sent me a pic of one for $8,000, 48000 miles. But he didn't tell me if it was an S or SV/SL. Waiting for his response.

 

[powersurge]

Well I'm perplexed by the entire conversation... I carpooled last summer about 2/3 of the time, but my carpool partner left. BTW, when all you have is a motorcycle, carpool conversations become quite amusing. No one seems to want to ride on the back in the heat

Here is a question: It would be worth it for me to stop every day and do a quick charge, say kick back for 30 minutes if I could find a charging station.

Finally, it's really about 43 miles each way. Yes, Peoria to Mesa is a little less, but I have to drive to get to and from the freeway.

My parents are aging and life a mile from my house. I really don't feel like I can move to the other side of town, and I felt for sure that the Leaf would be the perfect solution.

Any thoughts on charging half way home? That way if it was close, I would go for it, and if not, I could charge.

ICE IZ 4 U......... U NO?

 

[SageBrush]

I've been discussing the idea of a charger, but the reaction is "Great Idea"! and then crickets. In other words, I think they are humoring me. Since half my department is running software that I wrote, maybe I could hold that over them ...

"Charger" is too complicated for some people. Try "outlet."

 

[smkettner]

I've been discussing the idea of a charger, but the reaction is "Great Idea"! and then crickets. In other words, I think they are humoring me. Since half my department is running software that I wrote, maybe I could hold that over them ...

Interestingly, a guy who has sold me cars in the past just sent me a pic of one for $8,000, 48000 miles. But he didn't tell me if it was an S or SV/SL. Waiting for his response.

Next time the electrician is out for something ask for an estimate. You need to discover the logistics of pulling wire from a source to the point of charging. Could be easy, could be expensive.