First day with my Leaf, first low battery warning

[Deleted member 3147]

I just got off the phone with PG&E to ask about getting the triphase 480V power to my house. They said it can definitely be done, and wanted to take my application over the phone for it, but I wasn't ready. Based on what they said the cost on their side would be between $1000 - $5000 . Not sure what my electrician would charge for changing the panel but I'm sure it would be substantial.
I hope I could rent a Quickcharge CHAdeMO charger for less than the price of the car
Maybe I should ask Blink if they can upgrade me to a free L3 charger instead of L2, lol ...

Don't forget the cost of the 480V-to-240V/208V LARGE transformer so you can still use your 120V circuits. You're probably better off getting a 208V 3-phase service, assuming you can get that from PG&E and your planned DCQC can handle that as input.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I just got off the phone with PG&E to ask about getting the triphase 480V power to my house. They said it can definitely be done, and wanted to take my application over the phone for it, but I wasn't ready. Based on what they said the cost on their side would be between $1000 - $5000 . Not sure what my electrician would charge for changing the panel but I'm sure it would be substantial.
I hope I could rent a Quickcharge CHAdeMO charger for less than the price of the car
Maybe I should ask Blink if they can upgrade me to a free L3 charger instead of L2, lol ...

Don't forget the cost of the 480V-to-240V/208V LARGE transformer so you can still use your 120V circuits. You're probably better off getting a 208V 3-phase service, assuming you can get that from PG&E and your planned DCQC can handle that as input.

The house obviously already has 120/240. I disagree on 208v when 277v/480v is available for 50kW. It will be more electrically efficient and require smaller wiring for the higher voltage (hence lower amp load).

 

[jon]

I got my blue 2012 SL on saturday. Trickled charged it to 100% . I had a number of errands to run on sunday. [ ... ]

I was planning to start a 36 months lease of a LEAF this week. After reading some of this thread, I think I am going to wait for the 2013 model.

Really? Why? The OP was talking about L1 "trickle" charging (120 Volts, 12 Amps) being slow, which it is. But a 2012 LEAF can charge at 240 Volts, 16 Amps and that takes only a few hours for a typical charge or six to seven hours for a charge from very low to 100%. For most people that isn't a big deal since charging happens overnight.

It is true that the 2013 model LEAF will reportedly have an optional 6.6 kW charger, about twice as fast as the current LEAF (probably 240 Volts, 32 Amps). That would be useful if charging at L2 while away from home. But it will have little advantage for overnight home charging for most people. The 2013 LEAF won't charge any faster at 120 Volts than the 2012 LEAF.

Thank you for your feedback dgpcolorado. Did Nissan disclose any other improvements for the 2013 model in addition to the 6.6 kw charger? For example, is it likely they will have a battery with a longer range?

Also, I am not very technical, what you are saying is the 6.6 kw charger for 2013 is only for 220v use? They will not, can not, improve the charging time for 110v?

My thinking was that these EVs are like the iPhone, the newer version is worth waiting for if it's only a few months away.

Some background on expected usage: I will use this EV approximately 4 times a day, each time approx. 12 to 15 miles of which 5 miles will be in hilly conditions. So, something like 60 miles per day total. In between these short trips I will be able to plug it in 50% of the time to a 110v outlet.

 

[davewill]

... Did Nissan disclose any other improvements for the 2013 model in addition to the 6.6 kw charger? For example, is it likely they will have a battery with a longer range?

Also, I am not very technical, what you are saying is the 6.6 kw charger for 2013 is only for 220v use? They will not, can not, improve the charging time for 110v?

My thinking was that these EVs are like the iPhone, the newer version is worth waiting for if it's only a few months away.

Some background on expected usage: I will use this EV approximately 4 times a day, each time approx. 12 to 15 miles of which 5 miles will be in hilly conditions. So, something like 60 miles per day total. In between these short trips I will be able to plug it in 50% of the time to a 110v outlet.

If they were going to have a bigger battery it would have been shouted from the rooftops, so definitely not. As far as faster 120v charging, home 120v circuits are often 15a, so the most they will be willing to make the 120v EVSE for is 12a (80% of 15a). Unlikely to change as many people wouldn't be able to use it at home. As for as your example, is that in addition to overnight charging at home? If so, you should be fine.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

this just happened to me today. going to an appointment less than a 10th of a mile before I parked low battery warning came on. appointment lasted 45 minutes got back in the car and now I'm at 19.2 percent. got in the car drove about half a mile and then low battery warning came back on again but this time it was at 17.7 percent instead of the normal 17.4
No
why am I posting this? reason in particular

 

[Stoaty]

]If they were going to have a bigger battery it would have been shouted from the rooftops, so definitely not.

If they were going to have a bigger battery, they would keep it very quiet until the 2013 models were available and the 2012 models were all sold. Otherwise no one would want to buy a 2012. I think they will probably have the same battery, but one can't rule out a change until the specs are officially announced.

 

[madbrain]

Actually 65 miles total, mostly freeway. But I will be making stops at two different offices. I can either charge at the QC half-way, or on L1 on the way back at the second office. I will then have my regular 13 mile commute back home.

It should be doable without the QC, especially since I don't have the HOV decals yet, I may be stuck in traffic at low speeds at least half of the way.

Your trip is doable without ANY charging (with a new car, no battery degradation, no seriously cold weather), which is one of the things you'll learn. If you can get a charge, that's great. But I would certainly plan that trip with no charge (and limit speed to 55-60mph).

My battery was fully charged by the time I left - I guess the GOM is not just about mileage but also expected battery charging time. It was at least done charging about 1h30min early.

First 32 miles my GOM went down from 89 miles (ECO) to 45. I was driving 65, and had 7 bars left so did not try to charge.
Next 24 miles, the GOM (ECO) went down to 21, and only 3 bars left.

I still need to drive another 13 on the way home later tonight. I don't feel confident that I will get home tonight with GOM at 21 without charging, at least not without another LBW or perhaps my first VLBW . It's a 13 mile drive, mostly freeway, and that last half mile has taken a minimum of 5 miles off the GOM every time.

So, I plugged in the L1 into one of the two 120V outlets.
There was a Voltec plugged in to the other shared 120 outlet . The Volt started beeping because there isn't enough juice for the two L1 chargers ...

I got an email from the Volt owner saying he unplugged me, I told him my situation and he plugged me back in as he was leaving..

The web app shows the car is charging again with 17% charge and GOM 23. Based on 73 mile range, 17% is 12.41 miles which is about 0.5 mile short of what I would need to get home. And of course we know what that last half mile uphill entails in terms of energy consumption ...

Oh, when I left earlier, I reset all the counters to zero just before driving downhill.
I saw the realtime miles/kWh go into double digits both on the dash and on the LCD screen.

At the end of that half mile, at the stop sign, the dash was showing an average 27.0 miles/kWh, and the LCD 36.1 miles/kWh . I was driving at about 20 mph in ECO mode, with the foot on the brake, as I normally do.

 

[madbrain]

Thank you for your feedback dgpcolorado. Did Nissan disclose any other improvements for the 2013 model in addition to the 6.6 kw charger? For example, is it likely they will have a battery with a longer range?

There hasn't been any official announcement.
FWIW, my dealer told me on saturday that from what they knew, the L2 charger would be faster on the 2013, as rumored, and there would be a slight range improvement of about 6 miles.
That could be achieved through either a slightly bigger battery or other efficiency improvements, such as maybe some weight reduction.

Also, I am not very technical, what you are saying is the 6.6 kw charger for 2013 is only for 220v use? They will not, can not, improve the charging time for 110v?

No, 110V charging time cannot be improved on a typical 15A circuit. There are some 20A outlets but not as common, and the L1 charger doesn't try to pull that much since it would trip breakers in most places.

My thinking was that these EVs are like the iPhone, the newer version is worth waiting for if it's only a few months away.

My thinking was that the 2013 will not be selling/leasing at the fire sale prices we have seen in recent months, so I got one of the 2012s.

Nobody knows when the 2013 will be available. It could easily be next year. And some of the incentives for EVs are in question for tax year 2013. The $7500 tax credit could either be renewed, disappear, or it could be increased to $10,000 .

Some background on expected usage: I will use this EV approximately 4 times a day, each time approx. 12 to 15 miles of which 5 miles will be in hilly conditions. So, something like 60 miles per day total. In between these short trips I will be able to plug it in 50% of the time to a 110v outlet.

How short are the stops going to be ? And are you able to charge at every stop ? L1 charging is very slow so even if you are able to charge on 110V in between, it may not make much difference.

60 miles should be OK starting from a full charge. If you are charging on L1 at night you may not have a full charge in the morning, though as the full L1 charge time is 21 hours. You would have to charge on L2 overnight to make sure you start full. The 5 miles of hills might be a problem, but it depends on the slope and speed. And you haven't mentioned if the rest of the driving is freeway or not.

 

[surfingslovak]

First 32 miles my GOM went down from 89 miles (ECO) to 45. I was driving 65, and had 7 bars left so did not try to charge.
Next 24 miles, the GOM (ECO) went down to 21, and only 3 bars left.

I still need to drive another 13 on the way home later tonight. I don't feel confident that I will get home tonight with GOM at 21 without charging, at least not without another LBW or perhaps my first VLBW . It's a 13 mile drive, mostly freeway, and that last half mile has taken a minimum of 5 miles off the GOM every time.

Please, 13 miles with 3 bars left. That should be a no-brainer. Just don't look at the GOM, and slow down when in doubt.

Not sure if you were being serious about the Blink charger having an embedded flat-screen TV.
I actually sent an email to Blink asking about free L3. They replied after hours, no dice. Well, it was a nice try.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. The Blink QC has a large LCD screen, which serves no particular purpose on public parking lots. Now, if it was in a private garage, that's another matter altogether ;-)

 

[madbrain]

Please, 13 miles with 3 bars left. That should be a no-brainer. Just don't look at the GOM, and slow down when in doubt.

Well, I drove slow enough today, hit some traffic on the way back on the second trip .
In the evening I come home late so 65 is what I plan to drive on the freeway.
I am confident I would make the first 12 miles with no warning, just not as confident about the last mile.
Maybe it would make it, but I'm guessing there would be a warning.

Anyway, I am plugged back in now, I can use a little free electricity. It's still summer rates for PG&E and due to the slow L1 and my late starting days, I have had some charging happen in part peak hours.

 

[madbrain]

Don't forget the cost of the 480V-to-240V/208V LARGE transformer so you can still use your 120V circuits. You're probably better off getting a 208V 3-phase service, assuming you can get that from PG&E and your planned DCQC can handle that as input.

It's all very hypothetical right now. I am just investigating the possibility. The one-time costs are likely to be very high, I expect most of them to be for the charger unit itself, so I don't think it will make financial sense, but I will get everything priced so I know when and if to pull the trigger if costs drop. Hopefully I will be OK with L2 when I finally get it, but it cannot be soon enough.

 

[cwerdna]

Personally, I highly doubt you'll get anyone to install a free CHAdeMO (L3) charger, even if it's for the Ecotality project or whatever, even if you have the right type of electrical service available nearby.

DC fast chargers are really expensive (compared to L2 EVSE's), as I think we've discussed. If your house was maybe right next to a mall or busy stores, then the likelihood would be somewhat higher, esp. if they could generate revenue from people paying to charge.

As it stands, I think your probability is very close to 0%.

 

[madbrain]

Personally, I highly doubt you'll get anyone to install a free CHAdeMO (L3) charger, even if it's for the Ecotality project or whatever, even if you have the right type of electrical service available nearby.

DC fast chargers are really expensive (compared to L2 EVSE's), as I think we've discussed. If your house was maybe right next to a mall or busy stores, then the likelihood would be somewhat higher, esp. if they could generate revenue from people paying to charge.

As it stands, I think your probability is very close to 0%.

Yeah, I agree with that, no one else is going to pay for it upfront. There isn't a single business within about 1.5 mile of my house so I think business sponsorships are unlikely.
Just got off the phone with Tony, he thinks that because I'm only 3 miles off 680 that people would be willing to come to my place to pay for a DC charge if I advertise it on plugshare. I don't know.
Maybe if I have the only DC charger in the south bay but that may not last very long.

Assuming the city lets me do this and the neighbors don't complain, $30k total cost installed, and amortizing it over the 39 months life of my Leaf lease, I would need to generate $25 in profit per day from the charger. I'm not sure that's realistic. That would be about 2 customers per day at $12.5/charge (a price I personally would never pay for a charge) . But the additional electricity cost from PG&E could be very high. I wouldn't have enough roof space to put enough solar PV to cover 3 full quickcharges per day (1 for me, 2 for customers). If I have to buy the power from PG&E around, say at an average of 26 cents/kWh which was my average cost without PV and 20 kWh per charge, it would cost over $15/day. PG&E would probably shut me down and put me on a business electric schedule with the thousands of dollars in monthly demand fees which would kill the model right away. The city could also shut me down at any time. If I'm shutdown, any additional PV I may add up to roof capacity would never get amortized. Seems too many things could go wrong. I'm not crazy enough to pay $30k for the quickcharger only for personal use. That is about 25 years worth of my gasoline usage on one Prius at current prices.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I still need to drive another 13 on the way home later tonight. I don't feel confident that I will get home tonight with GOM at 21.....
The web app shows the car is charging again with 17% charge and GOM 23. Based on 73 mile range, 17% is 12.41 miles which is about 0.5 mile short of what I would need to get home. And of course we know what that last half mile uphill entails in terms of energy consumption ...

Please, please, please stop with the GOM and "literal" interpretations with the CarWings and apps.

Checkout the range chart and see how many miles you had with 2 fuel bars (what CarWings would call 17%).

 

[madbrain]

Tony,

Checkout the range chart and see how many miles you had with 2 fuel bars (what CarWings would call 17%).

Your range chart is very nice and useful, but there is no accounting for hills in there and I'm still a little bit in the dark with it.
I guess I will have to get close to turtle mode one day to really find out, but the later the better.

 

[Nubo]

...It's a 13 mile drive, mostly freeway, and that last half mile has taken a minimum of 5 miles off the GOM every time. ..."

I think you're misinterpreting the GOM behavior on your hill. It is not telling you that the 0.5 mile hill uses "5 miles worth of battery".

You were getting 3.2 mi/kWH (308WH per mile) average. At 21kWH available in the battery, this would be about 67 miles of range.

Now if your fears about this hill were true, it would mean that climbing this hill consumes 1.54 kWH of power (0.32 miles per kWH!). At this rate, it would mean that if you climbed such a hill continually, your car would only go less than 7 miles on a full charge. I can assure you your hill is not this steep.

A more reasonable interpretation would be that the 1/2 mile hill consumes the power that you normally are using for 1 mile of travel.

 

[Nubo]

Tony,

Checkout the range chart and see how many miles you had with 2 fuel bars (what CarWings would call 17%).

Your range chart is very nice and useful, but there is no accounting for hills in there and I'm still a little bit in the dark with it.
I guess I will have to get close to turtle mode one day to really find out, but the later the better.

There is.

Elevation: Subtract one Fuel Bar (1.5kWh) for every 1000ft / 300m increase

How steep is your hill?

At a 10 percent gradient, a 1/2 mile hill will rise about 260 feet. This is fairly steep. About 390 watt-hours.

A 20 percent gradient is unusually steep, and would amount for just over 520 feet -- or 0.78 kWh (780 watt-hours).

The world's steepest residential street has an average slope of about 20 percent (though it gets to 35% near the end). It is not 1/2 mile long though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

There is.

Elevation: Subtract one Fuel Bar (1.5kWh) for every 1000ft / 300m increase

Indeed. One bar on a new car is about 1.5 kWh, and that will buy you about 1,000 feet elevation difference. A Leaf with 3 bars left on the battery gauge has still approximately 30% of usable energy left in its "tank". That's quite a lot, and it will definitely yield more than 13 miles. It's just that the instrumentation in the car makes it really difficult to wring the last 15% of energy out of the battery.

On that note, it might be worth revisiting this excellent trip report. Apparently, you can drive from Sunnyvale all the way to the top of Mt. Hamilton on eight bars. The OP should be able to go halfway if he followed the same route and had three bars indicated. I hope this helps answer any concerns about climbing hills with the Leaf.

 

[madbrain]

Nubo,

Elevation: Subtract one Fuel Bar (1.5kWh) for every 1000ft / 300m increase

I missed that somehow.

How steep is your hill?

Very good question. I just got some elevation data from gpsies.com .
Based on the house at the bottom by the stop sign, vs my house, the difference is 321 ft.
I'm not sure how reliable this is.

Distance wise, maps.google.com driving directions say it's 0.6 miles. This appears to be rounded to 0.1 mile .
Just for the heck of it, I checked with the pedestrian option, it's still 0.6 miles. Downhill is 9 minutes and uphill 17 minutes. I have never actually checked, I have yet to go to/from my home on anything other than a car ...

The total elevation difference between my office and home is 564ft so there is another good chunk of uphill driving going on the rest of the way, but it doesn't get that steep until the very end.

At a 10 percent gradient, a 1/2 mile hill will rise about 260 feet. This is fairly steep. About 390 watt-hours.

At 0.6 mile and 321ft I think it's about the same slope, but I'm not sure how reliable the distance estimate I got from google is.
The odometer doesn't measure below 0.1 mile accuracy either. As far as I recall it is 0.5 mile on the odometer and not 0.6 . So could be a little under 0.6 .

Edit: maybe I can put the car in metric tomorrow and get something more accurate.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
http://priuschat.com/threads/google-earth-can-give-you-an-elevation-profile-of-a-route-between-2-points.100653/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; might help re: elevation data.