German's Repot 50% Range Reduction in Cold

[Rokeby]

OK, be gentle folks. This is just an FYI. The test was done with an iMIev, so
due battery differences, it may not be 100% applicable. Something to
think about if you go up skiing.

However, the most exciting question was how changes in weather conditions
and the associated operation of secondary power consumers, e. g. the air-
conditioning system, would influence the range. The TÜV SÜD E-Car Standard
answers this question, as the defined test cycle is also performed both at a
wintry -7°C and with the air-conditioning system in operation.

The comparative test carried out by special-interest magazine auto motor und
sport on the basis of TÜV SÜD's test standard for determining range delivered
dramatic results. To take the Mitsubishi iMIEV as an example, while the range
of the Japanese e-car determined in accordance with the legal test cycle
defined in ECE-R101 at 23°C and without additional power consumption
amounts to 133 kilometres, it is only 113 kilometres when based on the TSECC
(carried out also at 23 degrees, but at a higher speed). At a temperature of -7
degrees and when additional power consumers are turned on, the range drops
to a meagre 64 kilometres.

Read more: auto motor und sport

 

[Herm]

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

 

[HIOJim]

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

I don't know how Germans feel about electric cars, but I heard that they had the most solar powered infrastructure of any country. And Solarworld, a nearby producer of solar panels is a German owned company. They also hosted our Leaf test drives so they rock in my book

 

[smkettner]

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

The electric trains sure seem clean running

 

[evnow]

Looking at Volt range - I think cold weather will result in 30% to 50% range reduction.

If we can get Leaf here quickly, we can run some tests.

 

[mitch672]

Looking at Volt range - I think cold weather will result in 30% to 50% range reduction.

If we can get Leaf here quickly, we can run some tests.

I agree, which is why I believe a PHEV is a better solution for now in cold climates.
At least when your pack is empty, you can continue... which will not be the case for pure EVs

 

[evnow]

I agree, which is why I believe a PHEV is a better solution for now in cold climates.
At least when your pack is empty, you can continue... which will not be the case for pure EVs

Unless you have a short commute (like I do).

 

[Rokeby]

Here is some more info on the low temp/low range matter.
I'm bringing this up with the hope that you pioneers can
report on how the LEAF responds to low temps as a help to
later LEAFers in states where cold weather is an annual reality.

First, a thread from EV drivers at ecomodder.com:
Battery heating for EV efficiencyl

An ASME-JSME research paper dealing not with the loss of power,
but battery pre-heating to prevent it. It is directly concerned with
hybrid vehicle batteries, but should have some relevance such as:

Cooling and Preheating of Batteries in Hybrid Electric Vehicles

And finally, a DIY EV Battery Warmer.

 

[KeiJidosha]

If you chill the battery below freezing, turn on the headlights, wipers, heater, and AC/defroster, you will lose range.

This is the worst case scenario, but it is not news.

 

[AndyH]

<snip>
An ASME-JSME research paper dealing not with the loss of power,
but battery pre-heating to prevent it. It is directly concerned with
hybrid vehicle batteries, but should have some relevance such as:

Cooling and Preheating of Batteries in Hybrid Electric Vehicles
And finally, a DIY EV Battery Warmer.

I've been afraid to mention this, because not everyone will 'enjoy' this level of mod, but it would be pretty easy to add a pack warmer to the Leaf. The easiest is attached to the bottom of the outside of the Leaf battery box - no need to drop or open the box. The heat elements attach to the metal box with silicone rubber. These are used on vehicle oil pans - and this tech is certified for use piston power aircraft.

Some examples in no particular order:
http://www.spiderautomotive.com/oilpanheater.html
http://reviews.northerntool.com/039...ne-pad-heater-model-24150-reviews/reviews.htm

Caution - these can heat up to 180 degrees and should not be used in their stock form. We'll need multiple pads so will want to parallel the connections. We'll also want to use at least one temperature sensor (preferably one sensor under each pad) and wire a thermostat.

The Farnam pad is normally installed inside the battery box, but can be RTVd to the bottom of the box.
http://store.kta-ev.com/farnambatteryheaterpad.aspx
Thermostats are available as well: http://store.kta-ev.com/ktabatteryheatercontrol.aspx
We'll likely want to install some thin insulation or something between the heater and the bottom plastic cover on the car to protect the heaters.

Both of these options use 120VAC. We absolutely do not want to let either of these heat the pack to their ultimate 160-180°F range - we really only need to warm the pack into the 70s to give us summer performance.

 

[lne937s]

OK, be gentle folks. This is just an FYI. The test was done with an iMIev, so
due battery differences, it may not be 100% applicable. Something to
think about if you go up skiing.

However, the most exciting question was how changes in weather conditions
and the associated operation of secondary power consumers, e. g. the air-
conditioning system, would influence the range. The TÜV SÜD E-Car Standard
answers this question, as the defined test cycle is also performed both at a
wintry -7°C and with the air-conditioning system in operation.

The comparative test carried out by special-interest magazine auto motor und
sport on the basis of TÜV SÜD's test standard for determining range delivered
dramatic results. To take the Mitsubishi iMIEV as an example, while the range
of the Japanese e-car determined in accordance with the legal test cycle
defined in ECE-R101 at 23°C and without additional power consumption
amounts to 133 kilometres, it is only 113 kilometres when based on the TSECC
(carried out also at 23 degrees, but at a higher speed). At a temperature of -7
degrees and when additional power consumers are turned on, the range drops
to a meagre 64 kilometres.

Read more: auto motor und sport

I don't know if I-MIEV results are going to be comparable, as accessories would consume a larger portion of the vehicle's power, due to it being lighter and less powerful. I think something important to note is that on the NEDC combined cycle, the LEAF gets 109 miles, so the number being downrated is higher than the US estimate. I think 60 miles in cold weather with the accessories on is a reasonable assumption.

 

[Pier]

It seems to me you're making too much noise about range anxiety in cold weather. It is quite warm now here, being 13 last night and 23 today, while normal average should be 0 night and 18 day. ... just becaue of climate change. We usually have minimums around minus 22 for a couple of weeks in january... So Boston is nothing compare to here mitch672.

... and Nissan is sending the Leaf here next year ( Quebec city). They must know what they are doing. I will be an early adopter, having already made reservation.

I am not afraid at all for the leaf in sub-zero temp. It will be better than ice. No problems starting, nor bringing ice to normal temp. Of course pre-heating will help a lot. I actually pre-heat my ice car , both the engine and interior cab.

I am using Li-ion battery right now in cold weather ( cordless drill). and see no difference in cold vs hot weather. I expect to do well with my leaf , even pushing it hypermiling to 150 miles. I average 71 mpg on 5 years , local and highways with my Smart dsl and had a record of 107 mpg on a tank. Pre-heating the leaf somewhat to preserve batery energy should give good result.

I beleive what diminish the range in cold winter here are : stiff bearings, denser cold air, cabin heating and snowy roads. Otherwise the battery will be fine, heating itself as energy is flowing out.

So no range anxiety at all. Relax guys ! I have only waiting anxiety. I will give you reports in -15°F in a year.

 

[evnow]

... and Nissan is sending the Leaf here next year ( Quebec city). They must know what they are doing. I will be an early adopter, having already made reservation.

But your commutes are probably quite short in Quebec city.

 

[Pier]

But your commutes are probably quite short in Quebec city.

I don't commute being self-employ. I live 110km from Quebec city where I do business, I usually drive 15 to 30 km around my small town and 85 km to bigger town once a week. And I will go to Qc city, recharge partly there and back. I expect longer trip to Montreal (250 km) , recharging «en route» at friendly people having a leaf, or public charging stations.

 

[LakeLeaf]

IF (and that's a big IF), the range is reduced close to 50% in really cold weather - that also implies, doesn't it, that the efuel costs go up by a factor of 4 - half the range on a charge means 2X increase, and the same chemistry will also retard the charge - so another factor of 2X is it would require twice the electricity to refill.

I'm sure one of you bright guys will point out the flaws in that logic.

 

[Ohmie]

No question the LEAF's range is reduced in cold weather; max 75 miles range or less. Seems like a logical conclusion that more energy is wasted, too...

I wonder if pre-heating the vehicle (via climate control) while the vehicle is still plugged in would help?

 

[RWatkins]

It seems to me you're making too much noise about range anxiety in cold weather. ...

I am not afraid at all for the leaf in sub-zero temp. ...

So no range anxiety at all. Relax guys ! I have only waiting anxiety. I will give you reports in -15°F in a year.

I was hoping to find an update from you as you promised, but it looks like you only posted twice and haven't been active for about two years. Hope you didn't freeze.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It seems to me you're making too much noise about range anxiety in cold weather. ...

I am not afraid at all for the leaf in sub-zero temp. ...

So no range anxiety at all. Relax guys ! I have only waiting anxiety. I will give you reports in -15°F in a year.

I was hoping to find an update from you as you promised, but it looks like you only posted twice and haven't been active for about two years. Hope you didn't freeze.

The LEAF battery doesn't lose 50%. The rule of thumb I developed is 1% loss of capacity per 4F below 70F, where a 30F battery would lose 10% and a -10F battery would lose 20%.

The rule is 1% loss per 2C below 20C in the French derived metric system.

Now, if you want to throw heater use in, sure, it's possible to hit 50% loss !!! It all depends on how much heat over how much time. The Swedes developed a system using a fossil fuel to power the heater only.

Very smart in cold climates.

 

[Pier]

I was hoping to find an update from you as you promised, but it looks like you only posted twice and haven't been active for about two years. Hope you didn't freeze.

Sorry RWatkins for the forgotten promised update. At first, dealers didn't want to sell me a leaf because I was out of range from the dealer and other conditions I didn't like. Then, I sold my business for health reasons, had to buy a new house, etc... so no leaf for 2 years. Being late buyer, I then decided to wait for 2013 model mainly for the expected 6,6 km on-board charger, very important on out of range trips.

In november, on a very fast unexpected decision, I bought a I-MIEV. And I am experiencing every day with it, mainly about range in different weather, wind and speed conditions. I will have to wait till next summer to compare my data with « normal » conditions. Up to now , I drove in weather ranging from +4C to minus 15C. I am waiting for january usual minus 20-25C T°, to extend my data ( and next summer of course).

I must say I was a little arrogant about Li-batt. not loosing ( or loosing little ) energy in cold weather. That was at the beginning of you people experimenting in cold conditions ( I thought not knowing what were very severe conditions we experiment here).

The rule exposed by Tony Williams probably apply (1% for each 2°C below 20°C) to the Yuasa battery. I don't know yet. Half of the loss must come from mecanical frictions like any ICE car and the other half from battery capacity.

Nice snowy conditions here. Have a happy new EV year.

Pier

 

[Herm]

Both of these options use 120VAC. We absolutely do not want to let either of these heat the pack to their ultimate 160-180°F range - we really only need to warm the pack into the 70s to give us summer performance.

I like the oil pan heaters that stick to the oil pan with a magnet, no permanent mod needed.. I doubt it would ever get the temperature above 80°F since they are low power devices (150-300watts) and the battery is huge and has a lot of thermal mass to heat up.. but if in doubt you could always reduce the power with a standard dimmer. If you place it on the centerline of the pack there will not be any nearby cells to get the brunt of the heat. If worried you could also use an automatic heater with a thermostat, they are available in the more expensive models.