German's Repot 50% Range Reduction in Cold

[TomT]

Sorry, but Germany is light years ahead of the U.S. in many electric transportation modes and also in solar generation! You show your ignorance of the true situation in the EU...

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

 

[kubel]

If you chill the battery below freezing, turn on the headlights, wipers, heater, and AC/defroster, you will lose range.

This is the worst case scenario, but it is not news.

Worst case scenario is that for the next 2-3 months here.

 

[Herm]

Sorry, but Germany is light years ahead of the U.S. in many electric transportation modes and also in solar generation! You show your ignorance of the true situation in the EU...

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

Tom, how many Leafs, Volts and other EVs have been sold in Germany?.. they are fairly affluent, its a small country.

 

[Rauv]

I did a real world test today, knowing that I did not have drive too far, but I was still amazed at the drastic reduction in range due to the effects of snow, sloppy roads, cold weather and the biggie: running the heater continuously (climate set to 70 degrees). Outside temp was 15 degrees F

I charged to 80% overnight last night like I always do, and reset the mileage and mi/KWH display on the center console. Forgot to preheat, so I ran the heater all the way to work (11 miles). Leaf sat all day at work and I left for home and errands this evening, all with the heater running (4.5-5 kw).

Total miles today: 37.5 and that includes 1 mile into VLBW. That is very close to half the mileage I got this summer without all the extra load on the battery.

Lastly, I have often wondered how the traction control works. It was very slick today, and accelerating from every intersection the traction control light came on, and I was wondering if the brakes are fighting the motor, or does the OBC limit motor somehow with help from the brakes. Anyway, I'm sure there is loss from traction control, and not just from slightly spinning wheels.

 

[ChrisBriley]

Today I was shocked at my range loss due to extreme cold. Carwings said I traveled 46.2 miles today with an economy of 2.9 miles/KWh. I coasted in to my driveway with only 6 miles left after leaving with a reading of 86 miles. I preheated the car and ran the heat very very little (my feet were freezing. In the morning it was 2F. For some of this travel it was 18F. and for the latter third it was about 8F. My feet were freezing and I even stopped at the Nissan Dealer to charge for an hour so I'd make it home! I probably only added 10 miles at that charge, but I needed it. Extreme cold is a big factor! Careful.

Chris
Maine
2012 Leaf, 636 miles.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I believe there are more EVs per capita in Norway then anywhere. The capacity is stil there, just foor it and heat the pack

 

[TomT]

Yeah, and at those temperatures, the heat pump in the 2013 would likely offer little improvement... Let's face it, Leafs simply don't like very hot (battery) or very cold (range)...

Today I was shocked at my range loss due to extreme cold. Carwings said I traveled 46.2 miles today with an economy of 2.9 miles/KWh. I coasted in to my driveway with only 6 miles left after leaving with a reading of 86 miles. I preheated the car and ran the heat very very little (my feet were freezing. In the morning it was 2F. For some of this travel it was 18F. and for the latter third it was about 8F. My feet were freezing and I even stopped at the Nissan Dealer to charge for an hour so I'd make it home! I probably only added 10 miles at that charge, but I needed it. Extreme cold is a big factor! Careful.

 

[madbrain]

Tom,

Sorry, but Germany is light years ahead of the U.S. in many electric transportation modes and also in solar generation! You show your ignorance of the true situation in the EU...

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

He is unfortunately correct about the diesel soot. It is overwhelming. I grew up in France and the air in Paris was always unbreathable to me. Don't even think of opening the window on the freeway.
Even when my dad used to drive with the windows closed but with outside air coming in, it would bother me. It really is bad. I had to ask him to turn on recirculation.

The problem is purely political. Most cars in Europe use diesel because there are lower taxes on diesel fuel than gasoline. It's one they could easily solve through tax policy.
There doesn't seem to be any political will to do so.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy the air in California that I can actually breathe, unlike in France. The air quality would rank high as one of the reasons for me not to move back there.

Of course, you don't have to drive in Paris, you can just take the metro. That's what my mother and sister do. Most if not all trains are electric and 80% nuclear powered.
But even if you don't drive, you will still suffer from the terrible air quality caused by polluting diesel cars.

Even the Prius is not a really a success in Europe because it runs on gasoline rather than diesel.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Sales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .
The peak Europe Prius sales in 2010 were 43200 units. About what they were in the US in 2003. Only 30% as much as US sales. And 13.5% as much as Japanese sales.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I preheated the car and ran the heat very very little (my feet were freezing. In the morning it was 2F.

You already know that battery was COLD. At 2F, it was down about 17% on capacity from 70F., or about 17.4 kWh useable. Therefore, 2.9 economy multiplied by 17.4 equals only 50 miles until dead !!! Yowza! Even sparingly using the heater was killing economy, as that heat will go directly to 4.5-6.0kW when it's that cold. Was there snow on the road?

As you know, the 84 miles Guess-O-Meter is a complete waste of your thought process. I recommend completely covering it.

Here's some plug in socks you might want:

http://cozywinters.com/shop/wg-hsc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

My feet were freezing and I even stopped at the Nissan Dealer to charge for an hour so I'd make it home!

Try setting the airflow mode to recirc next time, if you haven't done that already. Could make a big difference.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMKHAnuH4WU[/youtube]

 

[klapauzius]

Tom,

Sorry, but Germany is light years ahead of the U.S. in many electric transportation modes and also in solar generation! You show your ignorance of the true situation in the EU...

The Germans will be dragged screaming into the electric age.. meanwhile european cities are grimy with diesel soot.

He is unfortunately correct about the diesel soot. It is overwhelming. I grew up in France and the air in Paris was always unbreathable to me. Don't even think of opening the window on the freeway.
Even when my dad used to drive with the windows closed but with outside air coming in, it would bother me. It really is bad. I had to ask him to turn on recirculation.

The problem is purely political. Most cars in Europe use diesel because there are lower taxes on diesel fuel than gasoline. It's one they could easily solve through tax policy.
There doesn't seem to be any political will to do so.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy the air in California that I can actually breathe, unlike in France. The air quality would rank high as one of the reasons for me not to move back there.

Of course, you don't have to drive in Paris, you can just take the metro. That's what my mother and sister do. Most if not all trains are electric and 80% nuclear powered.
But even if you don't drive, you will still suffer from the terrible air quality caused by polluting diesel cars.

Even the Prius is not a really a success in Europe because it runs on gasoline rather than diesel.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Sales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .
The peak Europe Prius sales in 2010 were 43200 units. About what they were in the US in 2003. Only 30% as much as US sales. And 13.5% as much as Japanese sales.

While the political prevalence of diesel due to subsidies is true, the statement about the air quality is not. I have lived in LA for a while and the air there was much worse than any city in my former home country (Germany). On a recent visit to Berlin, I did no notice any air quality problems (even in the summer heat) nor on the freeways. The bigger problem with EVs in Germany seems to the fact that at-home charging could be a big problem, since most people rent...

In Seattle at ~ 0 C, I noticed approx. 50-60 miles range in mixed freeway (55 mph) and city driving with moderate heater use.

 

[madbrain]

While the political prevalence of diesel due to subsidies is true, the statement about the air quality is not. I have lived in LA for a while and the air there was much worse than any city in my former home country (Germany). On a recent visit to Berlin, I did no notice any air quality problems (even in the summer heat) nor on the freeways. The bigger problem with EVs in Germany seems to the fact that at-home charging could be a big problem, since most people rent...

In Seattle at ~ 0 C, I noticed approx. 50-60 miles range in mixed freeway (55 mph) and city driving with moderate heater use.

Well, I don't live in LA but in the SF bay area. The air over here is much cleaner than the air in Paris.
The last time I went to Berlin, the school had booked us in the smoking section of the airplane. I don't recall about the air in the city itself, as it has been several decades, but I will not soon forget that plane ride.
I have visited many large other european cities in recent years, and they all have much worse air quality than the SF bay area. I don't think europeans are seriously concerned about the problem.
But hey, they don't allow smoking in airplanes and restaurants anymore even in France nowadays, one can only dream that some day they will do the same for diesel cars.

 

[donpaine]

In 1970 I started a 20 mile commute to work with a 1960 Fiat 4 dr. sedan which I converted to EV using a surplus WWll GE CM77 aircraft starter/generator and finally 10 6volt truck lead/acid batteries, the batteries were made by a small local firm which made batteries for the turn of the century cars like the Detroit Electric. I only observed a slight degradation in range during the subfreezing months in CT.
The MG EV1 came out with lead batteries and then changed to NiMH before being halted (?).
Now with the 2012 Leaf SV I hesitate to take a 30 round mile trip to the airport in sub freezing weather. I take my '01 Prius instead. Embarrassing.
Don

 

[klapauzius]

While the political prevalence of diesel due to subsidies is true, the statement about the air quality is not. I have lived in LA for a while and the air there was much worse than any city in my former home country (Germany). On a recent visit to Berlin, I did no notice any air quality problems (even in the summer heat) nor on the freeways. The bigger problem with EVs in Germany seems to the fact that at-home charging could be a big problem, since most people rent...

In Seattle at ~ 0 C, I noticed approx. 50-60 miles range in mixed freeway (55 mph) and city driving with moderate heater use.

Well, I don't live in LA but in the SF bay area. The air over here is much cleaner than the air in Paris.
The last time I went to Berlin, the school had booked us in the smoking section of the airplane. I don't recall about the air in the city itself, as it has been several decades, but I will not soon forget that plane ride.
I have visited many large other european cities in recent years, and they all have much worse air quality than the SF bay area. I don't think europeans are seriously concerned about the problem.
But hey, they don't allow smoking in airplanes and restaurants anymore even in France nowadays, one can only dream that some day they will do the same for diesel cars.

Well, the smoking policy in Europe is something that gets to me every time I visit (eating out at a Restaurant is virtually impossible, because you cannot taste the food over the cigarette stink )...but hey, we were talking about diesel fumes.

 

[epic]

i'm fellin' my leaf---but, let me get this right the car sucks in hot or cold climate!,,,that takes out about of 7/10th's of the population---HHMMMMMmmmmm..the concept has a LONG,LONG way 2 go.

 

[dgpcolorado]

In 1970 I started a 20 mile commute to work with a 1960 Fiat 4 dr. sedan which I converted to EV using a surplus WWll GE CM77 aircraft starter/generator and finally 10 6volt truck lead/acid batteries, the batteries were made by a small local firm which made batteries for the turn of the century cars like the Detroit Electric. I only observed a slight degradation in range during the subfreezing months in CT.
The MG EV1 came out with lead batteries and then changed to NiMH before being halted (?).
Now with the 2012 Leaf SV I hesitate to take a 30 round mile trip to the airport in sub freezing weather. I take my '01 Prius instead. Embarrassing.
Don

Thirty miles? How fast do you drive that route? 70 mph? I am mostly in the 60 to 70 mile range in 0ºF to 20ºF weather. Thin air to be sure but also large elevation changes. I do my 41 mile commute on an 80% charge with preheating while plugged-in in the morning, and 10 to 15 minutes of preheating while unplugged in the evening and still get home above Low Battery Warning (LBW). I do have the advantage that my garage is about freezing this time of the year, if you are charging outside that will lower the range somewhat in cold weather.

If you are paying attention to the "Guess-o-meter", don't. Experiment with how many fuel bars you use over certain routes at a given temperature. It is fine to take your car down to one fuel bar or even LBW but if you have concerns about making a particular drive just slow down to stretch the range until you get a feel for it. Of course, if roads are snowpacked, extra caution is necessary. And make sure your tires are at least 36 psi, 40 psi is better. Cold makes tires lose pressure unless checked regularly.

 

[Herm]

All cars/trucks in Germany are now required to have soot filters?.. once Euro VI goes into effect then the air should be clean except for a bit more NOx emissions that is allowed in LA

 

[dfriedla]

In 1970 I started a 20 mile commute to work with a 1960 Fiat 4 dr. sedan which I converted to EV using a surplus WWll GE CM77 aircraft starter/generator and finally 10 6volt truck lead/acid batteries, the batteries were made by a small local firm which made batteries for the turn of the century cars like the Detroit Electric. I only observed a slight degradation in range during the subfreezing months in CT.
The MG EV1 came out with lead batteries and then changed to NiMH before being halted (?).
Now with the 2012 Leaf SV I hesitate to take a 30 round mile trip to the airport in sub freezing weather. I take my '01 Prius instead. Embarrassing.
Don

Thirty miles? How fast do you drive that route? 70 mph? I am mostly in the 60 to 70 mile range in 0ºF to 20ºF weather. Thin air to be sure but also large elevation changes. I do my 41 mile commute on an 80% charge with preheating while plugged-in in the morning, and 10 to 15 minutes of preheating while unplugged in the evening and still get home above Low Battery Warning (LBW). I do have the advantage that my garage is about freezing this time of the year, if you are charging outside that will lower the range somewhat in cold weather.

If you are paying attention to the "Guess-o-meter", don't. Experiment with how many fuel bars you use over certain routes at a given temperature. It is fine to take your car down to one fuel bar or even LBW but if you have concerns about making a particular drive just slow down to stretch the range until you get a feel for it. Of course, if roads are snowpacked, extra caution is necessary. And make sure your tires are at least 36 psi, 40 psi is better. Cold makes tires lose pressure unless checked regularly.

Actually, 30 miles sounds about right. I don't dare drive my 2012 Leaf to the airport, either—because I'm getting about 3 miles per bar these days in Chicago. Before you ask, YES, I only use Eco mode, NO, I don't use the heat (much) and NO, I have no freaking clue what's going on here. I do know that Nissan insists that my car is in perfect working order.

I also know that without the ability to plug in at home, a Leaf with a 36-mile range is a very unpleasant car.