Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[Firetruck41]

The first statement is your opinion. The second statement is factually incorrect, i.e. both Honda and Toyota provide
models which indicate the opposite.

First statement may be an opinion, but pretty hard to argue against, unless you can not imagine any possible scenario where the BEV is a better choice.

Right, it's a vacuous statement, i.e. one's opinion, that expresses nothing about the typical consumer's acceptance of BEVs. It's basically a dot on a venn diagram. Or like for some, still using a BB phone is preferable.

The first statement is your opinion. Why am I stating the obvious, as if it is a crime? Isn't that what people routinely do on forums?

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DOE seeking input on H2@scale: hydrogen as centerpiece of future energy system; 50% reduction in energy GHGs by 2050

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160911-doe.html

. . . The concept sees hydrogen—a flexible, clean energy-carrying intermediate—having the potential to be a centerpiece of a future energy system where aggressive market penetration of renewables (wind and solar) are coupled with renewable hydrogen production to meet society’s energy demands across industrial, transportation, and power generation sectors using clean, renewable resources and processes. . . .

In webinar held in July, DOE researchers noted that a number of key recent changes are bringing hydrogen back into the spotlight, including:

• renewable energy is getting cheaper, and penetration levels are increasing at an exponential pace;
  
  the costs of greenhouse gas emissions (climate change) and criteria pollutants (health concerns) are being acknowledged and are reaching a point where society is demanding change (renewable portfolio and zero emission vehicle standards); and
  
  commercial viability of fuel cell vehicle technology has been demonstrated (commercial vehicles being sold). . . .

A key goal of the H2@Scale concept is to enable hydrogen production at $1/kg through advancements in electrolyzer technologies, use of low-cost electricity from the grid during off-peak times, and high-volume manufacturing of electrolyzers enabled by the use of hydrogen in a wide range of sectors. . . .

Obviously, they won't be achieving this anytime soon.

 

[Marktm]

It is hard for me to believe hydrogen will ever be the transportation "fuel" of choice - unless it is to Mars.

 

[smkettner]

It is hard for me to believe hydrogen will ever be the transportation fuel of choice - unless it is to Mars.

If we can get to Mars without hydrogen I think it would be a more viable solution.

 

[Marktm]

Need Scotty to look into this.

 

[WetEV]

It is hard for me to believe hydrogen will ever be the transportation "fuel" of choice - unless it is to Mars.

Light aviation, perhaps. Fuel cell might provide similar range, reduced maintenance and improved reliability. Reduced maintenance costs might make total cost less. Reliability sells.

 

[lorenfb]

Here's a H2 refueling location map as they proliferate California:

http://cafcp.org/stationmap

Most on this thread should be excited about that, right?

 

[RegGuheert]

Here's a H2 refueling location map as they proliferate California:

http://cafcp.org/stationmap

Most on this thread should be excited about that, right?

:?: :?:

I suppose you think people should be "good" excited rather than disgusted. Don't get your hopes up.

When the government spends $12,000 of OPM PER VEHICLE to build infrastructure that will likely not last as long as the vehicles which it services, it is an environmental disaster. But once you realize how much environmental damage is done to build each of these vehicles, that makes the expenditure much worse.

All this is being done at the expense of putting more BEVs on the roads, which is the most environmentally-friendly solution out there.

Let's let hydrogen live in the applications where it can provide SOME benefits, such as indoor logistics operations. If H2 can compete in any outdoor fleets such as long-haul or short-haul trucking, great! Otherwise, let's let the most-appropriate technologies fill those roles.

 

[finman100]

sarsasm alert.

I love that the site requires my zip. I enter 97321 and lookie there, no sites available. really. go figure.

Please let me know how next year looks. and the one after that. repeat and continue to bang head against wall. all the while EVs in all shapes and flavors grow in numbers. as does the electric "highways" and fueling stations (called outlets) wink wink.

It will indeed be a great day when hydrogen takes off. sorry, that last one was also sarcasm.

 

[GRA]

Both via GCC:

PowerCell in deal with Chinese company for fuel cell range extender with methanol reformer

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160912-powercell.html

. . . The two companies see potential for cooperation within range extenders (REX) for commercial light-duty electrified distribution vehicles. They will develop a fuel cell system with the Chinese customer’s methanol reformer based on PowerCells’s S2 fuel cell stack and extensive know-how in reformer technology.

The rapid growth of the Chinese market has encouraged the Chinese company to provide a strategy to meet the huge demand of green technologies that China requires. The company focuses on a variety of fuel cell applications, but primarily small distribution vehicles, backup and portable fuel cell applications. . . .

Toyota installs stationary fuel cells at Honsha Plant

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160912-toyota.html

. . . Toyota is progressing with initiatives toward the fulfillment of the Plant Zero CO2 Emissions Challenge that was announced at the 2015 Toyota Environmental Forum. In connection with this, Toyota aims to completely eliminate CO2 emissions at the recently constructed new energy management facility through energy-saving measures, and the use of renewable and hydrogen-based energy. . . .

For renewable energy to be utilized at the plant, stationary hydrogen fuel cells with a rated power output of 3.5 kW have been installed. Additionally, an energy management system that combines solar power generation with storage batteries made by recycling used batteries from Prius hybrid vehicles has been put into operation.

With this system, energy demand from the energy management facility is being projected, and a corresponding efficient energy supply is realized mainly through the highly energy-efficient fuel cells. These are supplemented by solar power—which generates changeable supply of power, in combination with storage batteries. The excess thermal energy generated by the fuel cells is then used for air-conditioning. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Alstom unveils hydrogen fuel cell regional train Coradia iLint

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/alstom-unveils-hydrogen-fuel-cell-regional-train-coradia-ilint.html

Alstom is among the first railway manufacturers to develop a passenger train based on fuel cell technology. To make the deployment of the Coradia iLint as simple as possible for operators, Alstom offers a complete package, consisting of the train and maintenance, as well as also the whole hydrogen infrastructure thanks to help from partners.

The Coradia iLint fuel cell stack is the core of the system, and is supplied with hydrogen on demand; the trains are powered by an electrical traction drive. The fuel cell provides electrical energy by combining the hydrogen stored in tanks on-board with oxygen from ambient air.

High-performance Lithium-ion batteries store energy from the fuel cell system when not needed for traction or from kinetic energy of the train during electrical braking and allows supporting energy delivery during acceleration phases. They accumulate the energy not immediately used, in order to later supply it as needed. This results in a better management of the fuel consumption. . . .

This launch follows the Letters-of-Intent signed in 2014 with the German Landers of Lower Saxony, North Rhine-Westphalia, Baden-Württemberg, and the Public Transportation Authorities of Hesse for the use of a new generation of emission-free train equipped with fuel cell drive. . . .

 

[WetEV]

It will indeed be a great day when hydrogen takes off. sorry, that last one was also sarcasm.

Actually, takes off might be the correct phrase. Hydrogen fuel cells might be better than gasoline in general aviation, due to lower maintenance costs and higher reliability. The range and lower mass of fuel cells give them an advantage over batteries for aviation.

 

[GRA]

It will indeed be a great day when hydrogen takes off. sorry, that last one was also sarcasm.

Actually, takes off might be the correct phrase. Hydrogen fuel cells might be better than gasoline in general aviation, due to lower maintenance costs and higher reliability. The range and lower mass of fuel cells give them an advantage over batteries for aviation.

We might also see them replacing short hop piston/turboprop regional airliners. Long haul will need liquid drop-in replacement biofuels (see the Biofuel thread), cause there's not enough space to carry enough fuel in gaseous form, and liquid H2's a pain.

 

[RegGuheert]

We might also see them replacing short hop piston/turboprop regional airliners.

Right. Germany is working on developing a four-seat H2 fuel-cell-powered propeller-based plane now. With a cruising speed of 145 km/hr, it won't set any performance records, but it's a start.

It will indeed be a great day when hydrogen takes off. sorry, that last one was also sarcasm.

Actually, takes off might be the correct phrase. Hydrogen fuel cells might be better than gasoline in general aviation, due to lower maintenance costs and higher reliability. The range and lower mass of fuel cells give them an advantage over batteries for aviation.

<snip>Long haul will need liquid drop-in replacement biofuels (see the Biofuel thread), cause there's not enough space to carry enough fuel in gaseous form, and liquid H2's a pain.

Perhaps, but as I have posted previously there is real interest in replacing the turbofan-based APU with a fuel cell if at all possible. But I agree that liquid fuels are likely to continue to win out here.

 

[GRA]

All via GCC:

Hyundai introduces hydrogen fuel cell H350 light commercial van concept at IAA

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160922-h350.html

. . . The H350 Fuel Cell Concept has a total range of 422 km (262 miles).

The powertrain is packaged in such a way that its installation has no impact on the H350’s load area. Depending on wheelbase, the H350 provides 10.5 m3 or 12.9 m3 space—sufficient to accommodate five standard European pallets—or room for a 14-seat passenger compartment. . . .

With the Fuel Cell powertrain capable of producing up to 100 kW (136 ps) and 300 N·m, the H350 Fuel Cell Concept is able to reach speeds of up to 150 km/h (93 mph)—similar performance to LCVs powered by an equivalent internal combustion engine. . . .

The 700-bar high-pressure hydrogen tanks, located under the floor of the vehicle between the two axles, store 7.05 kg of compressed hydrogen. . . .

The electricity produced by the fuel stack is then stored in a compact 24 kW lithium-polymer battery pack, with the inverter converting the energy to an alternating current to power the 100 kW electric motor. . . .

Celeroton launches its first turbo compressors with gas bearings; applied in fuel cell range extender for Fiat 500

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160923-celeroton.html

. . . The Swiss fuel cell company Swiss Hydrogen is already using the Celeroton air bearing turbo compressor CT-17.1000.GB with converter CC-120-1000 for the air supply of a 10kW range extender in an electric Fiat 500. . . .

U Waterloo researcher awarded 2016 Distinguished Dissertation Award for work on fuel cell catalysts

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160921-higgins.html

Dr. Drew Higgins from the University of Waterloo has won the 2016 Canada’s Distinguished Dissertation Award from the Canadian Association of Graduate Studies (CAGS) in the category of Engineering/Medical Science/Natural Science for his work on fuel cell catalysts.

Under the supervision of Dr. Zhongwei Chen, Canada Research Chair in Advanced Materials for Clean Energy, Higgins developed an alloy that slashed the use of platinum. Rather than simply match the performance of current catalysts, it actually proved seven times more effective.

Continuing his research, he ultimately identified half a dozen options that eliminated the precious metal entirely.

The 60+ research papers resulting from his work have been cited more than 3,600 times to date. . . .

His eventual goal is to create a fuel cell that will last 5,000 hours of operation and be competitive with typical internal combustion engines. . . .

 

[TonyWilliams]

We define capable in different terms.

Sure. Lots more people can use BEVs than can use hydrogen cars. Lots more people can afford to use BEVs, as they cost $40,000 less.

Lots more people can afford to use FCEVs (in areas where there's infrastructure) than BEVs of similar range, as the FCEVs cost at least $32,000 less. And lots more people can afford to use ICEVs/HEVs/PHEVs, because they cost many thousands less than either. Haven't we done this round several times before?

Where do you come up with some of this? What "FCEV" (aka hydrogen fuel cell vehicle) "costs" $32,000 less ? Are you comparing a premium car like the Tesla Model S or X that is assembled AT A PROFIT (about 25%) on a mass production line in California to a car that costs a six figure amount of money and that they SELL / LEASE for a grossly subsidized amount (like the fuel)?

Cost and price are two entirely different terms.

 

[GRA]

Sure. Lots more people can use BEVs than can use hydrogen cars. Lots more people can afford to use BEVs, as they cost $40,000 less.

Lots more people can afford to use FCEVs (in areas where there's infrastructure) than BEVs of similar range, as the FCEVs cost at least $32,000 less. And lots more people can afford to use ICEVs/HEVs/PHEVs, because they cost many thousands less than either. Haven't we done this round several times before?

Where do you come up with some of this? What "FCEV" (aka hydrogen fuel cell vehicle) "costs" $32,000 less ? Are you comparing a premium car like the Tesla Model S or X that is assembled AT A PROFIT (about 25%) on a mass production line in California to a car that costs a six figure amount of money and that they SELL / LEASE for a grossly subsidized amount (like the fuel)?

Cost and price are two entirely different terms.

Yes, I was using the word cost loosely there. Priced $32k less is the correct term. The tesla S60 isn't getting anywhere near a 25% margin, and with the current discounts being offered by Tesla to move iron (aluminum) to meet Q3 numbers, it's likely none of their cars are.

 

[lorenfb]

Yes, I was using the word cost loosely there. Priced $32k less is the correct term. The tesla S60 isn't getting anywhere near a 25% margin, and with the current discounts being offered by Tesla to move iron (aluminum) to meet Q3 numbers, it's likely none of their cars are.

Yes, and let's use the correct term and remember; gross margin excludes G&A, R&D (Autopilot ongoing costs),
and Sales. So when Tesla starts providing positive GAAP results, one can then realistically relate to gross
margin/profit. How convenient for some to forget that a company needs to make a profit to be a viable
entity and then discuss/promote their gross margin/profit, e.g. Apple.

Hey, by the way, where's that $2B from Panasonic that was to be invested in Giga over two years ago?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, I was using the word cost loosely there. Priced $32k less is the correct term. The tesla S60 isn't getting anywhere near a 25% margin, and with the current discounts being offered by Tesla to move iron (aluminum) to meet Q3 numbers, it's likely none of their cars are.

Yes, and let's use the correct term and remember; gross margin excludes G&A, R&D (Autopilot ongoing costs),
and Sales. So when Tesla starts providing positive GAAP results, one can then realistically relate to gross
margin/profit. How convenient for some to forget that a company needs to make a profit to be a viable
entity and then discuss/promote their gross margin/profit, e.g. Apple.

Hey, by the way, where's that $2B from Panasonic that was to be invested in Giga over two years ago?

I don't really follow every "personality" on here, but I believe you fall into the "Tesla hater" camp.

I actually toured the Gigafactory. That's where the money is, and they're still building. What did you think they did with the money? Like Tesla, Panasonic has to provide their products at a profit. Toyota doesn't need to do the same for the hydrogen car, since EVERY SINGLE HYDROGEN VEHICLE earns 9 ZEV credits each, allowing the sale of 888 gasoline burning cars in California alone. (the math is 0.79% ZEV / 9 credits = 0.088 cars per 100 sold).

Toyota sells 900,000 cars over three years in California, requiring 7110 ZEV credits, which can be handled by 790 hydrogen cars over model years 2015-2017.

They could give these hydrogen cars away, and still be money ahead. Actually, they could PAY YOU to drive them.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Wirth Research developing long-endurance hydrogen-powered terrain mapping drones

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/09/20160925-wirth.html

UK-based Wirth Research has been contracted to develop and deliver a unique and bespoke prototype fleet of hydrogen fuel cell powered advanced terrain mapping drones for DERYL Research K.K.—a subsidiary of DERYL Group K.K., based in Japan. . . .