My First Weekend as a LEAF and Volt owner

[DANandNAN]

The Prius was a disappointment. If you read the fine print, the electric range is only 6 miles.

I'm going to have to look around for that fine print. Held to the same standard, we'd have to tell people the Volt only goes 17 miles.

What? The only way a Volt will get that little range is if you were on a racetrack. We have tons of owners who drive hard and no one goes anywhere near that low, be it in EV mode or CS. We drive our Volt like any other car we've ever owned and get 40+ EV and mid 40's MPG.

 

[CarZin]

Yeah, the 17 mile figure that is referenced is the reported range of the Volt at 100 MPH. I can't confirm that, but it was mentioned last week on gm-volt. With the PIP, you couldnt do that on electricity, because the gas motor comes on after 62 MPH!!

Since the weather has gotten over 60 degrees, 40+ miles per charge every day. This morning I was at 48. My record is 52. My commute is 50% 65 MPH. The rest is back roads, and is 35 miles each way.

 

[mitch672]

Removed - enjoy your POS Volts

 

[shrink]

I should also point out that 4 PiPs can be built with the 16KWH pack used in the Volt. Isn't it better to get 4 people driving some electric range and reducing their gasoline usage, than 1 Volt? That's a valid argument for smaller EV range with expensive battery technology today.

The cars cost about the same after tax credits; and the premium PIP is MORE expensive than Volt after federal tax credit - for 6 miles of EV range.

How is this four PIPS to one Volt a valid argument? Talk about myopic...

 

[shrink]

The Prius was a disappointment. If you read the fine print, the electric range is only 6 miles.

I'm going to have to look around for that fine print. Held to the same standard, we'd have to tell people the Volt only goes 17 miles.

Actually, held to the same standard, the 2011 Volt EV range would be 35 miles:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/26/2011-chevy-volt-gets-stickered-93mpg-on-battery-37mpg-on-gasol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Prius is again 6 miles on EV only:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_EPA_label.png/640px-Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_EPA_label.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mitch672]

Removed

 

[shrink]

P.S. I've driven my PiP in all EV more than 12 miles, so this 6 mie range is not to be believed, again, ,if you are on local roads going 30-40MPH, you will get much more than 6 miles in EV.

That 12 miles sounds awfully close to the 11 miles of electricity + gasoline range cited by the EPA on the sticker of the car. Regardless, I still don't think that's an impressive EV number. Someone on these boards drove 151 miles on a single charge recently in his LEAF. That's impressive!

Owning both a Volt and LEAF, I really want the LEAF to be the future. I think the Volt is a great transition to that future. The Prius is a solid and venerable car and deserves a lot of respect, and the PiP has sold quite well, which I think is great. However, IMO I am disappointed with the EV range of the PiP, especially considering it costs as much as a Volt.

I

It's simple, 4 PiP drivers get to save fuel, rather than 1 Volt driver. Looking at the KWH best usage only, not the finances.

You simply cannot ignore finances in this comparison.

 

[DANandNAN]

I should also point out that 4 PiPs can be built with the 16KWH pack used in the Volt. Isn't it better to get 4 people driving some electric range and reducing their gasoline usage, than 1 Volt? That's a valid argument for smaller EV range with expensive battery technology today.

The cars cost about the same after tax credits; and the premium PIP is MORE expensive than Volt after federal tax credit - for 6 miles of EV range.

How is this four PIPS to one Volt a valid argument? Talk about myopic...

It's simple, 4 PiP drivers get to save fuel, rather than 1 Volt driver. Looking at the KWH best usage only, not the finances. Look at it this way, when battery prices come down, and density goes up, Toyota will be putting larger packs in future plug ins, can't say that about GM, they've about had their fill of battery technology, and will be looking for the exit by then, just as they did last time.

P.S. I've driven my PiP in all EV more than 12 miles, so this 6 mie range is not to be believed, again, ,if you are on local roads going 30-40MPH, you will get much more than 6 miles in EV.

It's not just the speed you're traveling at, it's how long it takes you to get there. A Prius may be traveling at 75 but most take a week to get there so they don't ruin their MPG Whatever, you're getting 52 if you say so. Most aren't. If you can live with that 6-11 mile range more power to you. We couldn't. We can't always live within the Volt's EV and there will be a lot of days/week that we'll exceed our soon to be purchased 2013 Leaf's 60-70 mile range but I would be out of PiP "EV" range immediately because I'd drive it like a regular vehicle.

I think your battery split-up ideas are lunacy.

I'd like to see your source on GM getting out of the EV game. Here's my source that says you're wrong http://www.cadillac.com/elr-electric-car.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; For those that don't want to click the link, Cadillac will have the ELR, an EREV in MY2014. The 2013 Volts are already in production. Let's see where the PiP numbers are once the hype dies down and the HOV PiP buyers that were booted from the HOV lanes in their old Pruis' before we start talking about future PiP. Toyota's putting a 6-11 mile range and an ICE that kicks in if you accelerate "too fast" is a toe in the proverbial pool at best and doesn't mean they're in it for the long haul or that they believe in the technology. If anything, it says the opposite.

 

[shrink]

Shrink,
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised on some any 70-80 mile drive as well where you use a little gas. I've gotten over and below shows 49 MPG (just gas portion). Below is a spreadsheet reference for MPGe as well to calculate in both gas+electricity.

From 2 Saturday's ago.

2/3rds driving 65 MPH in cruise control mainly. 1/3rd driving 35-50 MPH. Temps in mid-60F.

68.4 TotMiles = 40.8 EV miles and 27.6 gas miles.

Thanks, Scott! That is great information - and nice driving!

 

[DANandNAN]

Owning both a Volt and LEAF, I really want the LEAF to be the future. I think the Volt is a great transition to that future. The Prius is a solid and venerable car and deserves a lot of respect, and the PiP has sold quite well, which I think is great. However, IMO I am disappointed with the EV range of the PiP, especially considering it costs as much as a Volt.

I want a RLBEV to be the future. Well, maybe not Range Limited as much as driver limited. I saw that there's folks working tech that puts electricity onto streets and EV's charge inductively as they cruise. We're probably not going to see that for a while though Maybe not ever, but the future is definitely not in burning gasoline.

Congrats again on having an EV garage shrink. I hope we join your club soon.

 

[dcdivenut]

It's a shame most EV owners are so myopic and so focused on using NO gasoline, when the reality of the situation is, there are going to be many more Plug in Vehicles (Chevy Volts and Plug in Prius's) on the road shorty, than true EV's, doing a lot to reduce gasoline usage, probably as much or more than all of the EV's on the road.

It's also a much easier "sell" to the general public, until much larger range EV's with quicker charging times and lower cost are available.

Could not agree more with the above statement... We LOVE our Leaf, but need a longer range vehicle, and the Volt is not practical to take 2 kids in car seats, with suitcases and probably a dog soon, up to visit my inlaws 130 miles away on the highway once a month! Right now we have a Lexus hybrid hand me down from my mom in law. Hopefully once that reaches end of life there will be an all electric small to mid SUV with a 250 or greater range.

But in the meantime, not everyone has the same situation and for them our goal should be to get as many people driving as many electric miles as possible. If that means a Volt, then that is better than an ICE.

 

[mitch672]

Removed

 

[CarZin]

Much has changed at GM. Much has changed in the world. It's not good logic to use a program that was forced down GM's throat by California over 15 years ago to a program that was grown and developed on their own. It's also not good to throw stones at a car that has won more awards than any other car of its kind.

Yes, tax credits will end. Just like the tax credits ended for the first Prius. The car survived and the Volt will survive.

For the vast majority of EV owners here and on the Volt forum, the PIP is a token effort by a company that is so deep in their own hybrid technology, as to put next to no effort in a real EV car. And let's face it... The car can't go at highway speeds on electricity, can't accelerate hard without electricity, and has a range that won't do it for most. It isn't in the same arena as the Leaf or Volt.

I actually considered buying a regular Prius before the Volt was available. It was such a compromise in performance I couldn't do it. I didn't feel the compromise with the Volt.

 

[mitch672]

Removed

 

[surfingslovak]

You might not want to hear this, but most people could care less about EV's right now, they are unwilling to live with limited range, expensive cars. When battery technology/density/cost improves to the point of a wider audience (and not just early adopters), you can count on Toyota to have a product for the masses, just as they defined the hybrid market.

I would beg to differ. This strikes me like a sweeping statement based on anecdotal information. Will we see 10% market share for pure EVs or plugin hybrids this decade? Probably not, which you could interpret the way you just did.

If you wanted to look at it from another angle: I believe that Ford did a survey and found that 60% respondents would consider an EV if it cost as much as a gas car. That's very positive feedback, considering that practically no one has driven one, and they have no clear idea what this transition would mean. It's all based on hearsay and perception.

I find Renault's approach in Europe to be interesting, and potentially more successful. Buy the car, rent the battery. The total monthly cost will still be lower than what you pay for gasoline today. This also neutralizes the fear of owning a battery, and the fear of degradation and upgrades along with it. Perhaps this would not work in the US, but if there was a way to structure attractive leases for the entire vehicle, I'm sure that many more people would consider it.

Will the tech get better? Sure, but it's already close to being usable on a wide scale today. To me, this is as much of a business challenge as it is a technological challenge. Let's not forget that. Personally, I applaud the manufacturers that stick their neck out and try to innovate. I'm sure that Toyota is doing something, but it looks like they could do a lot more to support the transition.

The Prius had a huge impact and dramatically changed the public perception. It looks like the plugin Prius will help too, which is great. Toyota has partnered with Tesla as well, and even if they did nothing from here on out, they have already earned my respect. However, they are not an EV leader, and that's not a role they aspire to.

 

[CarZin]

That's great it's working for you. For the vast majority of us, we want to burn little or no gas. I have driven 8000 miles in the Volt in 4 months, burning 13 gallons of fuel. Your Prius would have likely burned a LOT of fuel, as I actually drive the speed limit on the highway, and commute 35 miles each way.

I feel like I'm arguing with someone who is clueless about technology developments. Your beloved Prius was reportedly sold at a 10k loss by Toyota, because they knew scale would bring prices down. They obviously did. GM and Nissan now have this vision, as the Prius has lost the technology edge.

 

[mitch672]

Removed - good luck

 

[surfingslovak]

I really wish the Tesla Model S wasn't just a rich persons toy, and was more affordable, for now the PiP is fine.

Right, understood, and it's good to hear that you found something that works well for you. Everyone's situation and needs are different. I cancelled my Model S reservation a few months ago, but I applaud them for they are doing. Although the price was certainly a concern, my experience with the Leaf has taught me that I don't need a Model S as my daily driver. I could be wrong, but I think that most of us could get by with a true 100-mile EV and quick charging.

 

[DANandNAN]

As far as GM is concerned, a leopard can't change it's stripes, neither can GM.

No stripes on a leopard.

CarZin,
Agreed.

surfingslovak,
I think a true 100 mile range, meaning one that you could drive like an ICE and get 100 miles, pared with a 6.6 or faster charger and DC Fast charger would be great for a daily driver if the infrastructure was there. The infrastructure isn't here, but we're still planning on buying a Leaf because we can make it work (I hope) for now.

For trips though, a larger battery and even faster charging would be necessary because folks don't want to stop every 90 minutes (100 miles) to charge for 50 minutes when you're driving 500 miles (especially with kids or when you're in a hurry). EV charging speed (and the resulting range) needs to be closer to gas fill-ups to compete with ICE vehicles on long trips.

Anyway, again, enjoy the Volt-Leaf combo shrink.

 

[mitch672]

Removed