need help counteracting naysayers who are doing Leaf bashing

[ttweed]

I am learning that it does not good trying to convince them that it's right ( or even feasible ) for them. Best if they come to that conclusion themselves.

+1. I am reminded of that old saying: ""Don’t try to win over the haters--you’re not the jackass whisperer."
:lol:
TT

 

[smkettner]

Why justify anything?

Do Corvette, lifted Dodge trucks, Ferrari, Mercedes, Subaru owners have to justify their decision?

Sorta like Mustang, Camero, Charger bantering, it will continue forever. (even though we all know the pony car is the best of the three )

If it puts a smile on your face then that is all that matters.

 

[Nubo]

As it is, EVs require customers to pay more and get less - less range, performance and utility.

While I'd certainly agree with you on "less range", and by extension some degree of utility since a BEV cannot be used on longer trips, I don't agree on "less performance".

While it's not a sportscar, I enjoy driving the LEAF more than any other car I've owned. I love the responsiveness of the drivetrain and how smooth and quiet it is. From my perspective, as one who has never owned a car with a net purchase cost above $28K, the LEAF is a luxury car for routine, everyday driving.

While I may still be in the honeymoon phase, my LEAF is currently at the top of my list of "best car I've ever owned" -- a position last held by my 1990 Miata. For different reasons, certainly.

Now, that Miata went 14 years and over 150,000 miles without ever disappointing or stranding me with a breakdown. So the LEAF's title is provisional.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Sorta like Mustang, Camero, Charger bantering, it will continue forever. (even though we all know the pony car is the best of the three

All three are "pony cars".


AMC Javelin
Chevrolet Camaro
Dodge Challenger
Ford Mustang
Mercury Cougar
Plymouth Barracuda
Pontiac Firebird

 

[lpickup]

They say "living well is the best revenge". I think the same goes for EV advocacy. Letting my neighbors and other road users see my EV as a "normal" car day in and day out probably is a better argument at this point than any amount of words I can say. But when I am asked, I will enthusiastically give my reasons for going this route. I am learning that it does not good trying to convince them that it's right ( or even feasible ) for them. Best if they come to that conclusion themselves.

I agree with this. When someone in real life talks to me about the car (and it is NEVER using the same harsh accusations that you see online), I just gently go over the facts as it relates to my experience, such as the fact that it suits practically all of our driving needs (and I enumerate the times when it didn't), how much I'm paying for electricity, where my electricity comes from (I pay a premium for the amount of green power my LEAF uses each month), etc. But I don't initiate anything unless asked.

Online however, I don't see my audience as the naysayer themself. They've got their own agenda and I agree I'm not likely to "win them over". Rather, my audience is the people that COULD be interested in an EV but are on the fence or skeptical or maybe have just heard all the lies being spread about them. I just want to make sure that when some naysayer puts a lot of misinformation out there online that I do my best to put what I believe is the correct information out there and let the people with open and thoughtful minds see both sides of the story and hopefully conclude what the truth is.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Buy one, enjoy driving it, stop reading stupid blog posts.

That will do more to silence critics then arguing on the net.

 

[redLEAF]

As most of the time, it's with people I work with, I ask them how long their daily commute is, usually I know what they drive (small office with about 65 employees) and if it's within the 'worst' winter range of the LEAF we have something more to talk about -- an easy comparison is with what they normally see what I drive (a 4.0 L minivan that gets 16 to 17 MPG during the winter months). With my electric rates, my daily commute is .44 cents versus about $7+ with the minivan. Usually that's enough to get their interest but again as others have said, I'm not trying to 'convert' them, just peak their curiosity especially if gas prices get crazy high this summer as well as keep any misconceptions as to what BEV's are all about. Lately, I've seen a number of new cars in our company lot, so I think some folks are at least thinking about replacing some aging car as has been a news topic as of late; would they consider an EV? Here in Chicago if it would be their only car I wouldn't think so but if both say a husband and wife have cars maybe quite possibly for one or the other ... some of our folks have quite long commutes (in from southern WI or even northern IN) so it simply wouldn't work for them but others are much closer -- one person on my staff says that his car barely warms up; that's a good candidate for an EV. One of the exec's also already talked about putting chargers in -- if we get the high gas prices the car could all of a sudden become more practical for a lot more people -- we'll see!

 

[EVDRIVER]

They are all here today so you can catch them al at once

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/one-inventor-wants-boost-evs-towable-turbine-210057167.html;_ylc=X3oDMTNsaHZlc2JuBF9TAzk3NjU3OTYxBGFjdANtYWlsX2NiBGN0A2EEaW50bAN1cwRsYW5nA2VuLVVTBHBrZwM1MTZjYWQ3Yy1mOTJjLTNiZDItYmJmOC02ODI4NGViZWVhOTAEc2VjA21pdF9zaGFyZQRzbGsDbWFpbAR0ZXN0Aw--" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Randy]

This comment made me laugh....

I get 400 MPG on my 4 Wheel Drive Hummer. I put Smaller Tires in the Front. That way I am always Driving Downhill. Signed Top Electricial Engineer at U C Davis.

 

[EVDRIVER]

This comment made me laugh....

I get 400 MPG on my 4 Wheel Drive Hummer. I put Smaller Tires in the Front. That way I am always Driving Downhill. Signed Top Electricial Engineer at U C Davis.

That is a good idea but how will he see the cars behind him in the rear view mirror?

 

[HighDesertDriver]

They say "living well is the best revenge". I think the same goes for EV advocacy. Letting my neighbors and other road users see my EV as a "normal" car day in and day out probably is a better argument at this point than any amount of words I can say. But when I am asked, I will enthusiastically give my reasons for going this route. I am learning that it does not good trying to convince them that it's right ( or even feasible ) for them. Best if they come to that conclusion themselves.

+1 l'm not an EV evangelist, but I'm always open to questions when someone is curious or makes comments. Whether we realize it or not, people are watching and evaluating, however. It may not be the perfect parallel example, but there were no other nearby PV systems when we put our's in. Today, six years later, three neighbors have PV. Who's to say where EVs will be in 2018?

 

[smkettner]

Sorta like Mustang, Camero, Charger bantering, it will continue forever. (even though we all know the pony car is the best of the three

All three are "pony cars".


AMC Javelin
Chevrolet Camaro
Dodge Challenger
Ford Mustang
Mercury Cougar
Plymouth Barracuda
Pontiac Firebird

They are all copies. I guess I meant the original, the Mustang.

Pony car is an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964.[1][2] The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

And the debate continues.... as will the EV debate

 

[GRA]

As it is, EVs require customers to pay more and get less - less range, performance and utility.

While I'd certainly agree with you on "less range", and by extension some degree of utility since a BEV cannot be used on longer trips, I don't agree on "less performance".

While it's not a sportscar, I enjoy driving the LEAF more than any other car I've owned. I love the responsiveness of the drivetrain and how smooth and quiet it is. From my perspective, as one who has never owned a car with a net purchase cost above $28K, the LEAF is a luxury car for routine, everyday driving.

I'm glad you have a ball driving your Leaf, but what causes enjoyment is largely subjective. By any objective measure and many subjective ones, Leafs or most BEVs other than the very high end have less acceleration, handling, driving feel etc. than a comparably priced (without subsidy) ICE, and most fall short of the ICE including subsidies, because they've been optimized for maximum efficiency (read range) at the expense of performance. Same goes for the Prius, although some HEVs have skewed towards performance over efficiency. Would anyone choose an Active E over a comparably-priced ICE BMW if they wanted the best _performance_?

BEVs have their place, their technology will improve, costs will drop and gas prices will rise making them more competitive. I'm all in favor of early adopters buying them in spite of the lack of cost-effectiveness; most personal and many commercial decisions aren't made purely on the basis of best cost-effectiveness. I would love to be able to have one, even though there's no way I can justify it (the Coda comes closest for me at the moment). And then there are those people like yourself for whom a BEV nicely fits a niche. But the jump to the mainstream for BEVs isn't likely to happen soon or quick, based on the historical evidence as well as the technical, economic, political and social constraints. To quote Robert A. Heinlein:

"What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell", avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" -- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"

 

[vin944]

You wanna talk about Leaf bashing. Here's a story for you. My wife was against it all the way. She has a 23 mile one way commute. Perfect for 80% SOC and then some. She drove it once and said she didn't like it because she likes to hear the roar of an engine. Then it was ugly. Then worried about the battery bars. Wanted nothing to do with it. That was OK I can drive it more and she can spend 200+ a month for gas. Then I got the HOV stickers. Now it's like, "Can I drive the Red car (Leaf) today"? No more Leaf bashing from her now.

 

[TonyWilliams]

They are all copies. I guess I meant the original, the Mustang.

Pony car is an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964

I agree that the Mustang was first, and inspired those that followed. But your quote does not exclude my comments... A Camaro is a pony car.

 

[abasile]

By any objective measure and many subjective ones, Leafs or most BEVs other than the very high end have less acceleration, handling, driving feel etc. than a comparably priced (without subsidy) ICE, and most fall short of the ICE including subsidies, because they've been optimized for maximum efficiency (read range) at the expense of performance.

By those performance measures, I'm sure you are correct that many $25K-$35K ICE cars beat the LEAF, and I'll grant you that the 2011 LEAF has pretty numb steering. (I thought I read that it's somewhat improved in the 2012 model.)

However, in terms of smooth, crisp application of power and quietness, the LEAF and other EVs really stand out. I guess my point is that, even if one does not care one iota about getting off oil or driving electric, EVs do have some very nice driving characteristics, provided the limitations aren't problematic for one's situation. At higher speeds, acceleration is lacking, but at lower speeds it's quite nice. With the battery pack under the middle of the car, I think the LEAF holds to the road quite well, in spite of its use of LRR tires.

I would love to be able to have one, even though there's no way I can justify it (the Coda comes closest for me at the moment).

This life is short, and we don't get to live it over again. If you are financially stable and truly can afford an EV, and would love to have one, then you don't need to justify it. Perhaps a Coda with the larger battery pack and faster charger could indeed work for you.

 

[Nubo]

They are all here today so you can catch them al at once

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/one-inventor-wants-boost-evs-towable-turbine-210057167.html;_ylc=X3oDMTNsaHZlc2JuBF9TAzk3NjU3OTYxBGFjdANtYWlsX2NiBGN0A2EEaW50bAN1cwRsYW5nA2VuLVVTBHBrZwM1MTZjYWQ3Yy1mOTJjLTNiZDItYmJmOC02ODI4NGViZWVhOTAEc2VjA21pdF9zaGFyZQRzbGsDbWFpbAR0ZXN0Aw--" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I couldn't resist.... :evil:

 

[GRA]

You wanna talk about Leaf bashing. Here's a story for you. My wife was against it all the way. She has a 23 mile one way commute. Perfect for 80% SOC and then some. She drove it once and said she didn't like it because she likes to hear the roar of an engine. Then it was ugly. Then worried about the battery bars. Wanted nothing to do with it. That was OK I can drive it more and she can spend 200+ a month for gas. Then I got the HOV stickers. Now it's like, "Can I drive the Red car (Leaf) today"? No more Leaf bashing from her now.

Of course, If the 'red car' was a Ford Excursion with HOV stickers, she'd say exactly the same thing.

 

[GRA]

<snip area of agreement>

I would love to be able to have one, even though there's no way I can justify it (the Coda comes closest for me at the moment).

This life is short, and we don't get to live it over again. If you are financially stable and truly can afford an EV, and would love to have one, then you don't need to justify it. Perhaps a Coda with the larger battery pack and faster charger could indeed work for you.

My inability to justify it is based on practical considerations, affordability being one of them. I don't turn cars over every few years but buy for the long haul, so the car has to have the range for my design trip at the end of the battery's useful life, not just at the beginning. I want a wagon/small SUV body style, because I sleep in the car on scuba trips and at trailheads on X-C skiing trips.

The range of the Coda with the larger battery is marginal for the most common trip I need a car for (my 'local' driving is done on foot or bike), a scuba-diving trip to Monterey, ~ 100 essentially flat miles one-way, about 95 miles at freeway speeds and the other 5 on city streets, plus <= 20 miles of local driving per day while I'm there, in temps down to about 30 degrees and carrying 270 lb. of scuba gear.

The Coda can probably do that trip non-stop when new, in ideal conditions. It probably can't do it at night, with the heater/defroster on, and definitely can't at the end of the battery's useful life. I calculate that I'd need a car with at least 40 kWh of battery to allow me to do the trip most of the time, 48-50 kWh to do it in worst-case conditions. Now that there are L2 chargers in Gilroy I could stop there for 1/2 hour or more to make sure I could do it, but don't want to have to stop for such a short trip, nor am I willing to drive surface streets at slower speeds to get there. The rear seats fold down apparently giving a flat load floor, so I could probably sleep in the car although it wouldn't be ideal.

Once in Monterey, there are currently no L2 chargers, and the few L1s aren't located anywhere near where I need them, so I have no way to get back home unless I were to spend 3-4 hours of L2 charging in Gilroy on the way down, and the same or more on the way back. Also, I rent, so I would need an L2 charger in a public lot or garage somewhere near my place where I could park the car overnight; at the moment, the nearest L2 is a Walgreen's about a mile away, and I couldn't leave the car there overnight.

Other, less frequent trips are 200 miles one-way or more, have no dedicated L2 chargers enroute (RV parks are about it) let alone L3s (which the Coda can't use in any case), and involve up to 10,000 feet of climb, plus colder temps and occasionally a need for AWD.

A Tesla S is out of my price range. A RAV4 with a bigger battery might well work if the price is right, but I'll have to wait and see. In short, right now, the practical problems are just more than I'm willing to put up with; I use a car for the speed, convenience, utility and flexibility it provides me over other forms of transport, and at the moment none of the EVs I can afford meet my needs in those areas. Hopefully that will change sooner rather than later.

 

[abasile]

I want a wagon/small SUV body style, because I sleep in the car on scuba trips and at trailheads on X-C skiing trips.

In terms of functionality (but not price), it seems that the best EV match for you would probably be the soon-to-be-revealed Tesla Model X, with AWD. I expect it will have a large battery pack like the Model S, and very good range.

Most people seem to buy EVs for day-to-day driving, and drive something else for longer trips. Barring a breakthrough like near-term commercialization of lithium air batteries, I agree it will be quite a number of years before long range EVs with AWD are affordable.

I think I recall you mentioning that you have a Subaru wagon. For all of your trips, I don't think you can do much better than that for now, unless you could live with a non-AWD Prius V wagon. Given how (overly) strict the California Highway Patrol is about requiring snow chains on 2WD vehicles, I wouldn't blame you for wanting to stick with AWD even if you could put studded snow tires on a Prius V. We are keeping a barely-driven AWD car for just that reason. (If left to my own devices, without the authorities requiring us to put on chains, I'd be fine up here without AWD.)