need help counteracting naysayers who are doing Leaf bashing

[TomT]

I drove a 2012 recently. It is no better unfortunately...

... and I'll grant you that the 2011 LEAF has pretty numb steering. (I thought I read that it's somewhat improved in the 2012 model.)

 

[GRA]

I want a wagon/small SUV body style, because I sleep in the car on scuba trips and at trailheads on X-C skiing trips.

In terms of functionality (but not price), it seems that the best EV match for you would probably be the soon-to-be-revealed Tesla Model X, with AWD. I expect it will have a large battery pack like the Model S, and very good range.

Most people seem to buy EVs for day-to-day driving, and drive something else for longer trips. Barring a breakthrough like near-term commercialization of lithium air batteries, I agree it will be quite a number of years before long range EVs with AWD are affordable.

That's my take, and since I only have one car (and use it sparingly), it's got to be able to meet all my car needs.

I think I recall you mentioning that you have a Subaru wagon. For all of your trips, I don't think you can do much better than that for now, unless you could live with a non-AWD Prius V wagon. Given how (overly) strict the California Highway Patrol is about requiring snow chains on 2WD vehicles, I wouldn't blame you for wanting to stick with AWD even if you could put studded snow tires on a Prius V. We are keeping a barely-driven AWD car for just that reason. (If left to my own devices, without the authorities requiring us to put on chains, I'd be fine up here without AWD.)

Yeah, the Forester met my needs better than everything else available when I bought it (I started with a short list of 8-9 cars, and whittled it down), although if I could have afforded to wait 6 months for Honda Elements to be available with AWD and a stick, I would have gotten one of those instead. And the '88 Subaru GL Turbo 4WD wagon I had before that also met my needs best, although the number of 4WD/AWD smallish wagon choices was a lot more limited then (Honda Civic and American Eagle, the latter a real POS). If the '88 Subie hadn't been stolen after 14.5 years, assuming it still wasn't costing me an arm and a leg for maintenance I'd probably still be driving it now, instead of my recently-turned nine Forester with under 58,000 miles on it, at least 85% of them highway.

As for chains, yeah, the ONLY reason I have AWD is because of lowest-common-denominator chain requirements. It's not too bad on I-80 or U.S. 50, as they allow 2WD with snow tires most of the time. But in Yosemite, where I more often ski in winter, it's usually 4WD/AWD with snow tires or chains, or chains with no exceptions. I've never minded putting chains on when I felt I needed them, but having wrecked a set of tires and chains driving around on mostly bare pavement in Yosemite Valley a couple of decades back because of the two small sections of Valley road that get ice on them when nothing else does, the AWD is pretty cost-effective. And it sure as hell is nice to not have to get into my rain gear to put chains on or take them off the majority of the time.

 

[Train]

BEVs suffer from the same limitations that they did 100 years ago, even though the goal posts have moved somewhat: low energy density (short range), lack of charging infrastructure and long recharge times, plus high price vice an ICE. Until any two of the first three plus the price issue can be solved, EVs will remain niche products. As it is, EVs require customers to pay more and get less - less range, performance and utility. The number of consumers willing to accept those limitations to get the benefits of EVs will remain small until the issues above have been solved or significantly ameliorated.

Bingo.

 

[Train]

How is asking a legitimate question bashing?

When it comes from a troll.

What?

That doesn't make the question any less legitimate or valid.

 

[TomT]

I drove the Prius V wagon (we are looking for a replacement for our ICE SUV and it has to be a Crossover type vehicle) for an extended period and it is simply something that I could not live with... It makes the regular Prius seem downright quick in relative performance, the handling was uninspired at best, and the interior felt downscale even though it was the high trim level 5. I also dislike the offset dash and the instrumentation. The V felt more like a second generation regular Prius...

For all of your trips, I don't think you can do much better than that for now, unless you could live with a non-AWD Prius V wagon

 

[abasile]

For me, the only thing that really makes any Prius fun to drive is that you can play the efficiency game. Achieving 65+ mpg on our mountain roads (assuming no traffic) is kind of cool. The LEAF is more fun than the Prius in basically all respects. Except that the Prius does have better, tighter steering.

As the regular, third-generation Prius is adequate for our family on long camping trips, we won't be considering a V. We've gotten pretty good at traveling light, and not needing a lot of space. While it would be nice to have the plug-in Prius for longer trips (with its larger battery just think of the regenerative braking possibilities here in the mountainous West), we have no plans to change vehicles for a long time.

 

[MrFish]

Like others have already stated, It is a personal decision. I replaced a SUV that still cost me $320.00 a month in payments and over $400.00 a month in gas. My home electricity bill actually went down due to the TOU-TEV rate and running my swimming pool filter after midnight so I'm essentially driving for free even before rebates = no brainer for me. Everyone needs to see what makes sense for their situation.

Also, it blows me away to think that 1 billion dollars leaves the United States in oil imports every day http://maps.unomaha.edu/peterson/funda/sidebar/oilconsumption.html, naturally, some of which ends up supporting governments and people who don't like me or anyone else in the US very much.

 

[DaveEV]

They say "living well is the best revenge". I think the same goes for EV advocacy. Letting my neighbors and other road users see my EV as a "normal" car day in and day out probably is a better argument at this point than any amount of words I can say. But when I am asked, I will enthusiastically give my reasons for going this route. I am learning that it does not good trying to convince them that it's right ( or even feasible ) for them. Best if they come to that conclusion themselves.

+1 l'm not an EV evangelist, but I'm always open to questions when someone is curious or makes comments. Whether we realize it or not, people are watching and evaluating, however. It may not be the perfect parallel example, but there were no other nearby PV systems when we put our's in. Today, six years later, three neighbors have PV. Who's to say where EVs will be in 2018?

There's actually a measured effect where installing PV encourages a mini-boom in neighborhood installations just because of the visibility. It acts as a reminder to others on the fence about the decision. Unfortunately, EVs tend to live in garages more than other cars, so the neighbor effect may be more limited?

If Solar is Contagious, Can Utilities Help Spread the Bug?

 

[coqui]

I just rented a nissan Altima on a recent business trip. Half full at the end of the rental, so I had to take it to a gas station to refuel...$40 for a half tank!
I'll take my Leaf over that any day

 

[HighDesertDriver]

They say "living well is the best revenge". I think the same goes for EV advocacy. Letting my neighbors and other road users see my EV as a "normal" car day in and day out probably is a better argument at this point than any amount of words I can say. But when I am asked, I will enthusiastically give my reasons for going this route. I am learning that it does not good trying to convince them that it's right ( or even feasible ) for them. Best if they come to that conclusion themselves.

+1 l'm not an EV evangelist, but I'm always open to questions when someone is curious or makes comments. Whether we realize it or not, people are watching and evaluating, however. It may not be the perfect parallel example, but there were no other nearby PV systems when we put our's in. Today, six years later, three neighbors have PV. Who's to say where EVs will be in 2018?

There's actually a measured effect where installing PV encourages a mini-boom in neighborhood installations just because of the visibility. It acts as a reminder to others on the fence about the decision. Unfortunately, EVs tend to live in garages more than other cars, so the neighbor effect may be more limited?

I would also guess that the neighborhood PV effect around here is augmented by the many surrounding commercial installations. Costco, Kaiser Permanente, the local mall, several car dealers, the local minor league baseball stadium, churches, and many of the schools have very large PV arrays on their buildings, over their parking lots, or in adjacent fields. The neighborhood EV effect is a bit more difficult with garages, but it actually seems that more of our neighbors initially notice the Leaf because it is so quiet, especially after someone in a diesel crew cab long-bed pickup has just driven by. :shock:

 

[lpickup]

but it actually seems that more of our neighbors initially notice the Leaf because it is so quiet, especially after someone in a diesel crew cab long-bed pickup has just driven by. :shock:

Actually it's a lot less quiet than I thought! Other than hearing my own vehicle back out and go down the street I haven't actually seen (heard) a LEAF drive by until just yesterday when my neighbor from up the street drove by, and actually it didn't seem too much quieter than a regular car (at about 25 mph). It is quieter than those pickups though.

 

[Nubo]

but it actually seems that more of our neighbors initially notice the Leaf because it is so quiet, especially after someone in a diesel crew cab long-bed pickup has just driven by. :shock:

Actually it's a lot less quiet than I thought! Other than hearing my own vehicle back out and go down the street I haven't actually seen (heard) a LEAF drive by until just yesterday when my neighbor from up the street drove by, and actually it didn't seem too much quieter than a regular car (at about 25 mph). It is quieter than those pickups though.

For most passenger vehicles at road speed the dominant sound is tire noise.

 

[GRA]

I do a fair amount of fast driving on mountain roads, and a Prius is out for the performance and handling reasons you state.

I drove the Prius V wagon (we are looking for a replacement for our ICE SUV and it has to be a Crossover type vehicle) for an extended period and it is simply something that I could not live with... It makes the regular Prius seem downright quick in relative performance, the handling was uninspired at best, and the interior felt downscale even though it was the high trim level 5. I also dislike the offset dash and the instrumentation. The V felt more like a second generation regular Prius...

For all of your trips, I don't think you can do much better than that for now, unless you could live with a non-AWD Prius V wagon

 

[EVDRIVER]

This thread is way off topic folks-

 

[redLEAF]

I do a fair amount of fast driving on mountain roads, and a Prius is out for the performance and handling reasons you state.

I drove the Prius V wagon (we are looking for a replacement for our ICE SUV and it has to be a Crossover type vehicle) for an extended period and it is simply something that I could not live with... It makes the regular Prius seem downright quick in relative performance, the handling was uninspired at best, and the interior felt downscale even though it was the high trim level 5. I also dislike the offset dash and the instrumentation. The V felt more like a second generation regular Prius...

For all of your trips, I don't think you can do much better than that for now, unless you could live with a non-AWD Prius V wagon

Let's see if I can tie the diverse subjects back together to the main topic of this thread because I happen to get a $50 'please stop by a Toyota dealer and take a test drive' prepaid credit card offer and we drove our LEAF over to a Toyota dealer. We're looking to possibly replace our '09 VW Routan and decided why not check out a Prius V wagon. First the thread topic ... pull up with a competitor's fully electric car and the dealer rep's swarmed out to take a look; as we all know the Prius line is the most popular hybrid out there so can imagine why ... the younger rep's knew immediately about it and asked how we liked it, etc. ; no negative comments really other than they're waiting for their own plug in to be offered from Toyota (not here yet in the midwest). But one older rep (closer to my own age) was a real skeptic ... 'what happens when you run out of electricity, what happens if you get stuck, etc., etc.' to which I replied the obvious and perhaps not so obvious answers 'what happens when you run out of gas, Nissan has free roadside assistance, I charge in my garage, check out your Walgreen's, they have charging stations just like Soldier Field and other places, etc.which seemed to at least answer ... these guys wouldn't 'bash' EV owners, or any others coming in as to offend a customer but it was even more interesting that the younger reps were also listening and came to my defense! No question we have a lot of bad info on EV's out there --- I'm still tempted to have a quick info sheet but would perhaps only use it for those REALLY interested versus critics who can't be swayed no matter what the actual truth versus myth is

On the second aspect, the Prius V, we drove a five that was fully loaded with the synthetic leather seats, larger navi screen, dual sunroofs, etc.; this one had just about every option and listed for over $38K. It had lots of room in wagon form, not of course minivan size but good, liked the sliding 2nd row seats, lots of head room, decent visibility, but the choice of dash materials, etc. looked much cheaper than its price tag would indicate. The brakes were grabby and the transition between electric and gas engine was very noticeable --- of course I haven't driven a Prius in a few years so didn't know what to expect. This one had the backup camera as well and the backup alarm was actually irritating; much worse than our LEAF's. Why no leather steering wheel as well? The dash has lots of info, quite busy with all the colors in use; appears less intuitive than the LEAF and while it had a fairly quiet ride, not sure how it would be on rough roads, etc. As the dealer mentioned that they could upgrade a lower (say a Prius V three) with 'factory' heated leather seats themselves to get the price down if we didn't want all the extras, it's a possibility but we need to test drive the others we're considering. My warranty runs out on my '09 Routan in August so we'll see how much of a hit on trade-in well before then so we can see what our next move is ... would still like to see the Ford C-Max (both hybrid and plug-in) and plan to test a Scion xB, Mazda CX-5, Kia Soul and new Ford Escape (if you see a pattern, yes I'd prefer the higher ride height that the minivan gave us as well as decent but not so huge cargo space and some better fuel efficiency).

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm still tempted to have a quick info sheet but would perhaps only use it for those REALLY interested versus critics who can't be swayed no matter what the actual truth versus myth is

Here's mine:

 
Not a hybrid; powered 100% by electricity that is mostly made in USA, not in the Middle East. Almost no electricity is produced from oil in the USA, and no electricity comes from outside North America. No soldier ever died defending electricity.
There is no gasoline motor; no smog checks, no oil changes, no camshaft belts, no tune-ups, no air and oil filters, no oil drips on the driveway/garage. The Chevrolet Volt has and uses a gasoline motor in addition to the electric motor, as does a Toyota Prius.
Zero tailpipe emissions, and zero emissions from electricity produced by geothermal, solar, wind, and hydro (dam) power, and even nuclear.
70 to 80 mile range, up to 100 miles with careful driving
Lithium Manganese battery has a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty
o   No acid in battery
o   Power does not taper off as battery gets lower in energy
Charging is normally done overnight, just like plugging in your cell phone. It can be charged in 30 minutes, and less than 5 minutes has been demonstrated in Japan.
Highest rated 5 star crash test by US government
The car’s charger draws about 3.8 kW; a little less than an electric clothes dryer at 4.4 kW.
The car is equipped with a noise maker so that pedestrians can hear it coming. Yes, it’s that quiet.
COSTS:
o   Purchase is $35,000 to $40,000, a lease is about $450 per month
o   $2 to $4 to "fill up" the battery with electricity overnight at your house
o   3 cents per mile energy cost (4 miles per kWh @ $0.12 each)
§  It costs 20 cents per mile for 20mpg gas car at $4 gallon for gas
§  Toyota Prius hybrid car costs 8 cents per mile (about 250% more)
Made in Japan by Nissan
o   To be built in Smyrna, Tennessee, USA in 2013, in America's largest car plant. Capacity of the plant, 550,000 units per year.
o   The batteries will be made in a separate factory in Tennessee
Eligible for California HOV (Car Pool Lane) until January 2015
 
 
 
Fun Gasoline Facts:
 
ü To extract and refine one gallon of gasoline takes about 6 kWh of electricity. That can power the Nissan LEAF about 24 miles.
ü In 2010, the U.S. imported oil from Mexico (11%) and from Canada (21%), however, 42% comes from OPEC.
ü It takes over 2 gallons of crude oil to produce one gallon of gasoline.
ü Only about 25% of the energy of gasoline is used to propel a car. The other 75% of the energy is wasted as heat.
 
Popular Misconceptions:
 
1. Electricity is produced from coal: Yes, it is in much of the USA; about 45%, but not in San Diego. Presently SDG&E has only one contract for energy that comes from coal, and it accounts for just 3% overall energy.  The contract will sunset in 2013, at which time SDG&E will have no direct coal-sourced supplies. SDG&E is building a 500kV line called the Sunrise Powerlink, a 120-mile line intended to carry renewable energy (solar, wind, etc) from the Imperial Valley to San Diego. The line is expected to be in service by 2012. About significant percentage of San Diego LEAF owners have solar panels.
(I do, too; 8kW of power, powering over 100% of my electric needs).
2) Electric car batteries will fill up landfills with toxic waste: 94% of lead-acid batteries that EVERY gas car has are recycled and there is no reason that Li-ion batteries cannot be recycled as well. Unlike lead-acid batteries, in addition to recycling, a secondary market will be created for used electric vehicle batteries to provide residential and commercial electricity during peak demand periods.
3) Batteries cost too much: Yes, they are very expensive. But, like any emerging technology, the cost comes down quickly with widespread adoption, like televisions, computers, cell phones, etc. The Nissan LEAF has an 8 year /100,000 mile warranty, where you will spend nothing.
4) Hydrogen is today’s answer: Perhaps, in 20 years. Unlike electricity, which is everywhere, there is no efficient way to generate hydrogen, there is no pipeline infrastructure to transport it and there are no refueling stations.
5) Nobody would buy a LEAF without big government handouts: Currently, there is a $7500 tax credit from the US government and a $2500 rebate from the state of California. Both of these will expire eventually, and then we’ll know if this is right or wrong!! Nissan is selling every single one they can produce, and there is a waiting list to get one (I waited 13 months total to get mine in May 2011).

 

[thankyouOB]

I boil it down to this:
do you like buying gasoline?

I then add, I have had it for a year, and love it. my only maintenance costs were a tire rotation.

I am no fan of foreign oil for the obvious and usual reasons, but I dont like buying oil from Texans or Oklahomans or Californians, either.
the oil companies are as popular with me as Blue Crime and the rest of the health insurers.