KeiJidosha
Well-known member
Brad missed the point. This is about the charger. The ZOE's 43kW charger is IN the car. It goes where you go. THAT is the story.surfingslovak said:
Official Renault Zoe thread
- Thread starter Ferrrrrrrrrr
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surfingslovak
Well-known member
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Agreed! I see that you left a comment on the article, which should help.KeiJidosha said:
KevinSharpe
Well-known member
Yep! and those charging locations can be everywhere because they are cheap.... 43kW Charging Stations cost less than $750 and can be very small (this unit is only ~16kW but changing a few components, and a larger box, would allow 43kW)surfingslovak said:
It depends on what we call "charging station".
The Zoe needs a "station", but this is a safe plug providing AC current, and the engine transforms the AC current on DC current.
http://media.renault.com/global/en-gb/renault/media/pressrelease.aspx?mediaid=31866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Zoe needs a "station", but this is a safe plug providing AC current, and the engine transforms the AC current on DC current.
http://media.renault.com/global/en-gb/renault/media/pressrelease.aspx?mediaid=31866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Code:
It is the first electric vehicle capable of being charged at any power level up to 43kW – in between 30 minutes and nine hours – thanks to its integrated Chameleon charger. ZOE’s battery can be charged in approximately one hour at 22kW fast-charge stations which are technicaly simpler and more economical than current fast-charge stations. This intermediate power level ensures longer battery life and has less impact on the grid than a 43kW charging station.KevinSharpe
Well-known member
I think we have a reasonable description on Wikipedia;navidad said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station
ztanos
Well-known member
N952JL said:
My mistake, I went off my brains quick correlation of .6 instead of ~.62 per mile.
That's what I get for trying to do the math in my head.Bad news concerning the Nissan Leaf.
Renault Zoe will receive "LG" (south korea) battery, and not NEC/Nissan's one.
Probably because the Nissan's one is not reliable with a lot of high-speed charges.
Indeed, in Europe, KangooZE and FluenceZE have Nissan battery, but can't be charged quickly.
Owner of Renault Zoe will rent the battery, so some owners will charge quickly often (not thinking of the longlife of the battery).
Renault Zoe will receive "LG" (south korea) battery, and not NEC/Nissan's one.
Probably because the Nissan's one is not reliable with a lot of high-speed charges.
Indeed, in Europe, KangooZE and FluenceZE have Nissan battery, but can't be charged quickly.
Owner of Renault Zoe will rent the battery, so some owners will charge quickly often (not thinking of the longlife of the battery).
KevinSharpe
Well-known member
can you provide a source for that statement please?navidad said:
I have a lot of links.... in French, sorry
http://www.leparisien.fr/flash-actualite-economie/renault-prefere-lg-a-nissan-pour-les-batteries-electriques-de-flins-02-07-2012-2074622.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Edit :
In english
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303684004577506742894325600.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.leparisien.fr/flash-actualite-economie/renault-prefere-lg-a-nissan-pour-les-batteries-electriques-de-flins-02-07-2012-2074622.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Edit :
In english
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303684004577506742894325600.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Herm
Well-known member
There were some previous reports that Renault would delay the battery factory until 2015 so that they could start with the NMC chemistry (apparently its not ready yet).. with the current European economy it is prudent that they are buying LG batteries for now, probably NMC also. I hope Smyrna also starts with NMC.
That's not the reason I heard. The LG batteries (also used in the Volt) are very similar to the AESC batteries used in the LEAF.navidad said:
But the reason they are using LG is because AESC simply can't produce batteries fast enough until the UK and Tennessee plants come online. AESC's plant in Japan can only produce enough batteries for about 5,000 cars/month and they expect the Zoe alone to take up a substantial portion of that.
One fact is sure: KangooZE and FluenceZE sold in Europe, have Nissan's Battery, and can't be charged quickly (and It was not promised like that a few months before the commercialization, so it was very disappointing).
That's why I guess there is some trouble to charge often quickly Nissan's battery.
That's why I guess there is some trouble to charge often quickly Nissan's battery.
jkirkebo
Well-known member
navidad said:
Fluence is the Better Place battery swap car. My guess is they omitted both CHAdeMO and the 43kW AC charger from the Fluence so as not to compete with the battery swap scheme.
Herm
Well-known member
jkirkebo said:
They did it to save money.. the Kangoo is not a PBP vehicle.
Herm
Well-known member
Beleaf said:
My guess, no.. But I think it would be better to have at least a forced air cooling system.
Ferrrrrrrrrr
Member
Zoe has Lithium polymer battery and:
Lithium-polymer has significant advantages over traditional wet lithium-ion traction batteries, including higher energy density and lower manufacturing costs. Lithium polymer is more resistant to physical damage and it can handle more charge-discharge cycles before storage capacity begins to degrade. Lithium polymer technology also offers significant advantages in thermal robustness and safety.
Another key engineering challenge for Hyundai Hybrid Blue Drive was assuring maintenance-free battery operation over the vehicle's life. At least 10 years, and 150,000 miles in all weather conditions is targetted. Heat is the enemy of battery cycle life but Hyundai's thermal imaging testing showed how much cooler a lithium polymer battery is compared to today's nickel-metal hydride battery or a conventional wet lithium-ion battery. Consumers will notice these advantages in improved useful life and lower maintenance costs, says the company.
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25277" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps Renault is not comfortable with what happened in Arizona. Remember that Renault is committed to changing the batteries below 75%
This may explain why Renault now use LG, but not that in 2014 Renault cede part of its facilities in Flins to LG make batteries.
Lithium-polymer has significant advantages over traditional wet lithium-ion traction batteries, including higher energy density and lower manufacturing costs. Lithium polymer is more resistant to physical damage and it can handle more charge-discharge cycles before storage capacity begins to degrade. Lithium polymer technology also offers significant advantages in thermal robustness and safety.
Another key engineering challenge for Hyundai Hybrid Blue Drive was assuring maintenance-free battery operation over the vehicle's life. At least 10 years, and 150,000 miles in all weather conditions is targetted. Heat is the enemy of battery cycle life but Hyundai's thermal imaging testing showed how much cooler a lithium polymer battery is compared to today's nickel-metal hydride battery or a conventional wet lithium-ion battery. Consumers will notice these advantages in improved useful life and lower maintenance costs, says the company.
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25277" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps Renault is not comfortable with what happened in Arizona. Remember that Renault is committed to changing the batteries below 75%
drees said:
This may explain why Renault now use LG, but not that in 2014 Renault cede part of its facilities in Flins to LG make batteries.
Funny - because everything I've seen about lipo batteries is different - primary benefit is higher potential energy density but at higher cost. Basic chemistry of lipo batteries is the same as regular lithium cells - difference is that the electrolyte is a gel instead of liquid - the lipo is otherwise basically the same as non-lipo cells.Ferrrrrrrrrr said:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_li_polymer_battery_substance_or_hype" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you have any references that demonstrate better cycle or calendar life for lipo batteries of the same chemistry, would love to see it.
Obviously not comparing to AESC's LiMN chemistry which is proven to stay cool under high load. And again, never mind that "lipo" doesn't mean much without saying what specific chemistry is used.Ferrrrrrrrrr said:
References, please.Ferrrrrrrrrr said:
Ferrrrrrrrrr
Member
References:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303684004577506742894325600.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"RENAULT—Renault SA won't be using proprietary battery technology for its electric cars in the foreseeable future, and will instead rely more on a South Korean supplier, as the French auto maker seeks to save cash and reduce expenditure, people familiar with the matter said Wednesday.
Renault has signed a draft agreement with LG Chem Ltd. —a unit of South Korea's LG Group —to buy the company's battery packs, these people said.
A Renault spokeswoman confirmed the tentative deal with LG Chem.
Renault's decision highlights how the company is battling to cut costs amid sagging vehicle sales in its core European market, as well as the complexity of plotting a battery strategy amid rapid technology evolutions.
LG Chem already supplies batteries to Renault for its Twizy, an urban, two-seater electric quadricycle, and the ZOE, a mass-market subcompact car that will go on sale later this year.
Renault originally envisioned the battery-supply deal with LG Chem to last only a few years—until it was ready to manufacture its own. But the French auto maker has now decided to leave the costly battery-technology side of its ambitious electric-vehicle strategy almost entirely up to the South Korean company, which has decades of experience in battery development and production and an army of engineers working on the technology, the people familiar with the matter said.
Under this week's arrangement, LG Chem would manufacture cells and packs for the Twizy and ZOE at one of Renault's facilities after 2014.
Renault produces two other electric vehicles—the Kangoo, a small van; and the Fluence, a compact sedan whose sales are still quite marginal, as the bulk of the sales so far has been to fleet operators. The batteries for these vehicles are made by Renault's Japanese alliance partner Nissan Motor Co. and NEC Corp.
Renault and Nissan say they have invested some €4 billion, or roughly $5 billion, to get the first-mover advantage in what they expect will be a huge money spinner in the coming decades as emissions norms become increasingly more stringent for car makers and fuel prices tend to rise.
But Renault is also desperate to lower the cost of manufacturing its electric vehicles. The high cost of batteries—several thousand euros—pushes up sticker prices and is one of the biggest hurdles in persuading consumers to buy the vehicles.
Renault decided it was less risky to subcontract battery development and production for a technology that's evolving so quickly that the power storage and efficiency of today's batteries will be outdated tomorrow, these people said.
Renault's planned tie-up with LG Chem is the latest twist in a saga that began in 2009, when the automobile industry was reeling from the collapse in sales that followed the financial crisis.
At the time, seeking ways to save jobs in the industry in France, the government arranged a €600 million project involving investments by Renault, the French state and AESC, a battery-making joint-venture between Nissan and NEC. Renault is 15% state-owned.
The idea was for the venture to develop and manufacture batteries next to the Renault car assembly plant in Flins, west of Paris, where production of the ZOE is just getting under way, with first deliveries slated to start in the last quarter of this year.
That project collapsed last year, however, amid concerns over its economic viability. Renault then looked for another partner to give it a leg-up to allow it to master battery technology and extract more added value from its electric-vehicle program, and found one in LG Chem.
Battery production at Flins, which was hailed in 2009 as Renault's "center of gravity" for its electrical-vehicle strategy, is now expected to start in 2014, one of the people familiar with the matter said.
The ambitious electric-vehicle strategies of both Renault and Nissan are the brainchildren of Carlos Ghosn, who heads both companies. Mr. Ghosn still expects plug-in electric vehicles will account for 10% of global vehicle sales by 2020, while most industry experts predict 5% at best.
With renewed and increasing signs of fragility in the French automotive sector, the French government said Tuesday that it's preparing measures to bolster the industry. Industry executives say Renault may benefit from new government incentives for the electric-vehicles segment, which currently represent only a tiny fraction of overall automobile sales.
Renault officials point out that the company is still keeping an eye on developments in battery technology through its partnership with France's Atomic Energy Commission.
Write to David Pearson at [email protected] "
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/2012/07/02/97002-20120702FILWWW00361-renault-flins-lg-produira-les-batteries.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Nissan batteries are not "so much so that Renault thought," said a person familiar with the matter, quoted today by the newspaper, which speaks of a "missed big politico-industrial". "
The reason for denying their own batteries must be important.
Read this:
http://www.cheric.org/PDF/HHKH/HK47/HK47-3-0344.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?4579-Some-research-data-on-LG-battery-s-life" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303684004577506742894325600.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"RENAULT—Renault SA won't be using proprietary battery technology for its electric cars in the foreseeable future, and will instead rely more on a South Korean supplier, as the French auto maker seeks to save cash and reduce expenditure, people familiar with the matter said Wednesday.
Renault has signed a draft agreement with LG Chem Ltd. —a unit of South Korea's LG Group —to buy the company's battery packs, these people said.
A Renault spokeswoman confirmed the tentative deal with LG Chem.
Renault's decision highlights how the company is battling to cut costs amid sagging vehicle sales in its core European market, as well as the complexity of plotting a battery strategy amid rapid technology evolutions.
LG Chem already supplies batteries to Renault for its Twizy, an urban, two-seater electric quadricycle, and the ZOE, a mass-market subcompact car that will go on sale later this year.
Renault originally envisioned the battery-supply deal with LG Chem to last only a few years—until it was ready to manufacture its own. But the French auto maker has now decided to leave the costly battery-technology side of its ambitious electric-vehicle strategy almost entirely up to the South Korean company, which has decades of experience in battery development and production and an army of engineers working on the technology, the people familiar with the matter said.
Under this week's arrangement, LG Chem would manufacture cells and packs for the Twizy and ZOE at one of Renault's facilities after 2014.
Renault produces two other electric vehicles—the Kangoo, a small van; and the Fluence, a compact sedan whose sales are still quite marginal, as the bulk of the sales so far has been to fleet operators. The batteries for these vehicles are made by Renault's Japanese alliance partner Nissan Motor Co. and NEC Corp.
Renault and Nissan say they have invested some €4 billion, or roughly $5 billion, to get the first-mover advantage in what they expect will be a huge money spinner in the coming decades as emissions norms become increasingly more stringent for car makers and fuel prices tend to rise.
But Renault is also desperate to lower the cost of manufacturing its electric vehicles. The high cost of batteries—several thousand euros—pushes up sticker prices and is one of the biggest hurdles in persuading consumers to buy the vehicles.
Renault decided it was less risky to subcontract battery development and production for a technology that's evolving so quickly that the power storage and efficiency of today's batteries will be outdated tomorrow, these people said.
Renault's planned tie-up with LG Chem is the latest twist in a saga that began in 2009, when the automobile industry was reeling from the collapse in sales that followed the financial crisis.
At the time, seeking ways to save jobs in the industry in France, the government arranged a €600 million project involving investments by Renault, the French state and AESC, a battery-making joint-venture between Nissan and NEC. Renault is 15% state-owned.
The idea was for the venture to develop and manufacture batteries next to the Renault car assembly plant in Flins, west of Paris, where production of the ZOE is just getting under way, with first deliveries slated to start in the last quarter of this year.
That project collapsed last year, however, amid concerns over its economic viability. Renault then looked for another partner to give it a leg-up to allow it to master battery technology and extract more added value from its electric-vehicle program, and found one in LG Chem.
Battery production at Flins, which was hailed in 2009 as Renault's "center of gravity" for its electrical-vehicle strategy, is now expected to start in 2014, one of the people familiar with the matter said.
The ambitious electric-vehicle strategies of both Renault and Nissan are the brainchildren of Carlos Ghosn, who heads both companies. Mr. Ghosn still expects plug-in electric vehicles will account for 10% of global vehicle sales by 2020, while most industry experts predict 5% at best.
With renewed and increasing signs of fragility in the French automotive sector, the French government said Tuesday that it's preparing measures to bolster the industry. Industry executives say Renault may benefit from new government incentives for the electric-vehicles segment, which currently represent only a tiny fraction of overall automobile sales.
Renault officials point out that the company is still keeping an eye on developments in battery technology through its partnership with France's Atomic Energy Commission.
Write to David Pearson at [email protected] "
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/2012/07/02/97002-20120702FILWWW00361-renault-flins-lg-produira-les-batteries.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Nissan batteries are not "so much so that Renault thought," said a person familiar with the matter, quoted today by the newspaper, which speaks of a "missed big politico-industrial". "
The reason for denying their own batteries must be important.
Read this:
http://www.cheric.org/PDF/HHKH/HK47/HK47-3-0344.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?4579-Some-research-data-on-LG-battery-s-life" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
