PG&E EV Charging rates E-1 and E-9 - Not so simple

[Rat]

...my actual consumption (I currently have a smart meter), that I downloaded from PGE (you can get your hourly consumption week by week

Can you explain how to do this? I just spent 20 minutes trying to get this information and couldn't even get a profile set up. It's one of the most dysfunctional and poorly designed websites I've ever used.
1. After going to the website I find I have to create a user account. OK, reasonable.
2. I fill in all the data they ask for, name, address, etc., then find I need the account number, which they should be able to get from the address, but, no I have to go dig through old bills.
3. Then on the next page I choose user ID, password, click that I've read terms and agree (I lied again), security question, answer to security question, retype password, phone number and finally click next. Then it tells me that user name is taken and clears all the info I just entered, so I have to enter it all again. Fume! If there has to be a unique user ID, say that at the beginning and right above where the user ID box is, and make that the top box on the page, then check it before going on. At the very least don't clear all the fields when there's a duplicate.
4. Choose new ID, re-enter everything, go on.
5. Next page it asks you to tell it a ton of info about your house - number of stories, rooms, how many appliances, which energy source (gas/electric/propane, etc.), etc. etc. I get past page 1, then to page 2. Finally done and click Next. Nothing. Try again. Nothing.
6. I give up and go back to the page before that questionnaire and there it does tell me whether I used more electricity this month than a year ago (which I already had on the paper bill) and a small java box supposedly there to show me what time of day my energy usage was. That took almost 10 minutes to load and when it did, I finally got this screen:

I've had a smart meter since December.
I never saw a link for downloading weekly TOD usage.
Stymied and defeated I clicked the help link and got sent to yet another really lengthy form that was all menu driven and not very applicable, and finally was able to send that. An email appeared telling me they would get back to me within two days.
Grumble, grumble. What a useless crock.
Anyway, so how do I get that info?

 

[planet4ever]

Stymied and defeated I clicked the help link and got sent to yet another really lengthy form that was all menu driven and not very applicable, and finally was able to send that. An email appeared telling me they would get back to me within two days.
Grumble, grumble. What a useless crock.

Good luck on that "two days". I used to have a PG&E web account, and tried to use it about thee weeks ago. Got a message saying the account had been deactivated because it had been more than a year since I had signed on. They gave me reactivation instructions which I followed carefully. At the end of that process I got a message saying I would have to send an email to ask for reactivation. I did, and the response said I would hear back within two days.

... Three weeks passed. ...

I finally got a response yesterday telling me to go though the reactivation process again. This time it actually worked. It turns out since I don't have a smart meter, and I have asked for paper bills, there is essentially nothing available by logging on beyond what is available to everyone. I can't even look at past or current bills!

 

[gudy]

1. login on pge.com
2. in the left navigation bar, click on "usage", the menu expands
3. click on "Hourly/Daily Usage", a page loads up
4. on that page, click on "I understand, Proceed"
5. it takes a while to load (maybe it's down as I write this ...)
6. Retry the steps 3 and 4 if it doesn't load after 20 seconds
7. You have a few options on the graph : for "Graph" : choose "Hourly usage"
8. once the graph loads you have a new option for "Period" : choose "Week"
9. and voila, you've got your hourly usage by week, which you can download by clicking the "Download" link
10. change the date, wait for the new graph to load, click on download, wait for the download to complete and repeat step 10 about 52 times to get a full year

edit : maybe it helps that I've been registered on their website for years (that's how I initially paid my first pge invoice, and how I registered my move 2 years ago)

 

[gudy]

I asked Adam today, and he told me that switching from an E-1 meter to a TOU meter for E9-A (or -B) was not going to cost me anything from PGE side of things.

Sadly, I thought that my 3x consumption of electricity in the winter was due to my main heater being electric, but a PGE guy came by today, and confirmed that my heater is gaz ... it's the small portable heater that I put in my kids bedroom that accounts for all this extra cost ... never thought my car would be cheaper than this thing to run ...

By the way, by switching to E9-A, even with keeping this portable heater (which I won't now that I know that it's so expensive to operate), I would get about 15 miles of free driving per day (that's more than 5000 free miles per year).

So I would really encourage everyone to look into E9-A as well as E9-B as :
1. E9-A might actually help you reduce your overall energy cost for your other appliances (unless I guess you have AC)
2. there is no cost to get E9-A installed (compared to a separate panel / meter which might get into thousands of dollars in addition to the level 2 charger)
3. you can start with E9-A and do level 1 charging (especially if you don't drive much), and save a LOT on initial cost.

For 30 miles / day (11k miles / year), charging my leaf would have cost me $109 (compared to E1).

I'll have to double check my spreadsheet, cause it sounds almost too good to be true ;p

 

[Rat]

1. login on pge.com [snip]...
10. change the date, wait for the new graph to load, click on download, wait for the download to complete and repeat step 10 about 52 times to get a full year

This worked. Thanks.

 

[SanDust]

For 30 miles / day (11k miles / year), charging my leaf would have cost me $109 (compared to E1).

I'll have to double check my spreadsheet, cause it sounds almost too good to be true ;p

That might be a little low but you ought to be under $200 with the off peak rate of around a nickel a kWh. The advantage of E9B is that it lets you start with the baseline rate. For E9A the power needed to charge the Leaf goes on top of the power needed for the rest of the house. That could make the power for EV charging cost three more times what it would at the baseline rate.

I think the second meter costs $250.

 

[EVDRIVER]

For 30 miles / day (11k miles / year), charging my leaf would have cost me $109 (compared to E1).

I'll have to double check my spreadsheet, cause it sounds almost too good to be true ;p

That might be a little low but you ought to be under $200 with the off peak rate of around a nickel a kWh. The advantage of E9B is that it lets you start with the baseline rate. For E9A the power needed to charge the Leaf goes on top of the power needed for the rest of the house. That could make the power for EV charging cost three more times what it would at the baseline rate.

I think the second meter costs $250.

One must pay for the second meter monthly for a VERY long time. It's also expensive to install and usually does not make sense. The utilities need to get a clue and structure sensible rates. IE E6 for solar with a flat night rate but the same day rates and hours.

 

[DeaneG]

...I think the second meter costs $250.

Maybe, but the installation (second panel, service entry upgrades, etc) can cost thousands depending on your home's details.

 

[edatoakrun]

Remember that E9 gives you the same low kWh price for the first TWO tiers of use.

Perhaps LEAF buyers could use this as an opportunity to improve their home's energy efficiency and reduce electricity consumption. Electricity is a very efficient vehicle fuel, but is often the least efficient, most expensive, and polluting fuel for home use. Check out the fuel calculator here:

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/Fuels/FuelCompare.htm

Many home energy uses require electricity. But if you need energy to produce heat, you're almost always better off using primary fuels, rather than electricity... Large cost and CO2 pollution savings can be had by replacing electric resistance heating appliances, which may account for a very large percentage of your electric bill, with natural gas or propane.

Electric water heaters (except for heat pumps), clothes dryers, stoves, and space heaters are among the biggest money pits. Look at it this way. It takes 100 BTUs of natural gas to get the heat your utility converts to electricity, to get you about 40 BTUs of electric heat for your hot shower. This is the main reason you can cut your energy cost and CO2 pollution by half, or even more, by switching from electricity to natural gas.

http://anewscafe.com/2010/04/23/2010-nor-cal-energy-use-guide-save-money-and-the-planet/

 

[SanDust]

Maybe, but the installation (second panel, service entry upgrades, etc) can cost thousands depending on your home's details.

The devil is in the details, but unless the house needed a service upgrade, which would be dictated by the charging station not the meter, adding a meter should cost hundreds not thousands. Some 200 amp service panels will also accommodate two meters, in which case adding a second meter would not cost much at all.

Definitely worth getting a quote and running the numbers. An extra 10 or 12 bucks every time you fill up can add up fast.

 

[DeaneG]

..unless the house needed a service upgrade, which would be dictated by the charging station not the meter, adding a meter should cost hundreds not thousands. Some 200 amp service panels will also accommodate two meters, in which case adding a second meter would not cost much at all. Definitely worth getting a quote and running the numbers. An extra 10 or 12 bucks every time you fill up can add up fast.

Agreed, each individual will need their own quote to make a decision. I have a recessed service entry with underground feed. It's a lot simpler if you have a surface-mount panel and overhead feed.

The only actual quotes I have heard from other folks were in the $2K range. Maybe those with cheaper quotes never posted? It would be very helpful to hear from someone who went through the whole process.

 

[Long4Leaf]

I went through the whole process. Cost $3600 for new meter and installing 2 EV locations (240v and 115v outlet at each location), one in the garage, one outside. Both were >100ft away (unfortunately, the overhead drop to the meter is on the opposite side of a long single story house). Meter cost $250, not sure what the monthly fee is. I put it in before end of last year, so my estimate is ~1.5-2.0 years to payback the $1800 it cost me (comparing E9A to E9B). I do not have solar and I am in the highest teir. Someone is home all day, so estimated peak use during summer was pretty high. For my situation, it seemed to make sense, but it may be different from most others.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I went through the whole process. Cost $3600 for new meter and installing 2 EV locations (240v and 115v outlet at each location), one in the garage, one outside. Both were >100ft away (unfortunately, the overhead drop to the meter is on the opposite side of a long single story house). Meter cost $250, not sure what the monthly fee is. I put it in before end of last year, so my estimate is ~1.5-2.0 years to payback the $1800 it cost me (comparing E9A to E9B). I do not have solar and I am in the highest teir. Someone is home all day, so estimated peak use during summer was pretty high. For my situation, it seemed to make sense, but it may be different from most others.

Yes, in your situation it looks like 9b is the best option. Everyone's needs are different, and it is highly dependant on if you have solar. For me, the 9a with solar was cheaper than 9b due to my high PV generation in the summer months, plus the cost of installation (my feed is underground). I also get to take advantage of the lower 9a rates for the whole house vs. E1 in the winter when my PV generation is very low (major shade issues in the winter months). Now, if I could only get PG&E out to the house to change the meter!!

 

[gascant]

I went through the whole process. Cost $3600 for new meter and installing 2 EV locations (240v and 115v outlet at each location), one in the garage, one outside. Both were >100ft away (unfortunately, the overhead drop to the meter is on the opposite side of a long single story house). Meter cost $250, not sure what the monthly fee is. I put it in before end of last year, so my estimate is ~1.5-2.0 years to payback the $1800 it cost me (comparing E9A to E9B). I do not have solar and I am in the highest teir. Someone is home all day, so estimated peak use during summer was pretty high. For my situation, it seemed to make sense, but it may be different from most others.

Yes, in your situation it looks like 9b is the best option. Everyone's needs are different, and it is highly dependant on if you have solar. For me, the 9a with solar was cheaper than 9b due to my high PV generation in the summer months, plus the cost of installation (my feed is underground). I also get to take advantage of the lower 9a rates for the whole house vs. E1 in the winter when my PV generation is very low (major shade issues in the winter months). Now, if I could only get PG&E out to the house to change the meter!!

I'm in the process of getting estimates for adding a second meter specifically for the EVSE (which I already had installed in November on the main house meter/service panel). One guy came in at $3700 not including PG&E fees. The second guy was here yesterday and hasn't sent me anything yet, but he did say that they now have to run everything through PG&E and the process has become bureaucratic. This second guy actually does AV EVSE installs for Nissan so I'm thinking he knows the scoop.

On a side note, I met an electrician from San Diego who said that SDG&E will allow you to keep the entire house on your main meter and install a 2nd smart meter in the EVSE circuit. At the end of the month, they basically subtract the EVSE usage from the overall total and send you 1 bill. How simple is that? It's too bad that PG&E hasn't gone this route yet.

I'm thinking that keeping my single meter and adding rooftop PV might be the best solution after reading the thread.

 

[DaveEV]

On a side note, I met an electrician from San Diego who said that SDG&E will allow you to keep the entire house on your main meter and install a 2nd smart meter in the EVSE circuit. At the end of the month, they basically subtract the EVSE usage from the overall total and send you 1 bill. How simple is that? It's too bad that PG&E hasn't gone this route yet.

Any details on the SD electrician? Feel free to reply in the SDGE thread or PM me.

 

[gascant]

Any details on the SD electrician? Feel free to reply in the SDGE thread or PM me. [/quote]

I'll try to get his contact information. We were in a training class together so I'll email the organizer. Could take a few days.

 

[gascant]

I think I saw at PG&E's web site that E-9 is no longer mandatory. You can keep your regular E1 rate if it's a benefit. I'll be using 16-18 kWh/day on commuting so I think the TOU E-9A might work out better for me, definitely in the winter months.

 

[planet4ever]

Yes, I think I'm going to keep my E6 TOU schedule, which is a better fit for solar panels. The E9 off-peak rates are a bit cheaper than E6, but I'm not going to be pulling a lot of juice for the LEAF. E9 also has a "phase shift" on the tiers, but that doesn't matter if your solar panels can keep you in tier 1.

Ray

 

[DeaneG]

I wound up on E9A. My panels are oriented west so they peak later in the day anyway.

After PG&E did an E1-E6 rate comparison for me using last year's consumption data (no panels or Leaf, useless result), I asked them to do an E1-E6-E9A comparison using estimated consumption figures I generated. They never replied, and switched me to E9A without a word.

I guess in a year, I'll have a look myself to see if E1 or E6 would have been cheaper than E9A.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I wound up on E9A. My panels are oriented west so they peak later in the day anyway.

After PG&E did an E1-E6 rate comparison for me using last year's consumption data (no panels or Leaf, useless result), I asked them to do an E1-E6-E9A comparison using estimated consumption figures I generated. They never replied, and switched me to E9A without a word.

I guess in a year, I'll have a look myself to see if E1 or E6 would have been cheaper than E9A.

I have Solar as well, and mine does very little in the winter due to shading. I'm hoping that E9A will be better than E1 as well. I've done a few little things to give it a head start. I run the dishwasher on delay so that it starts after 12am. Same with my pool pump/filter...I run it from 12am to 7am during the winter when there is no need to heat the pool. I do a quick load of laundry in the mornings before I leave and make sure the house is heated up before 7am (there is someone home all day). Replaced all the kitchen and bath can lights with LEDs. My goal is to actually have the same bill with my LEAF as I did before I got it. We will see what happens the year is out.