Please complain to Nissan to fix the climate control

[johntaves]

I do find myself using the bubbles though, and the little, subtle regen circles.

I'm not talking about looking at the thing. I mean getting useful information that one can act on out of it. As far as I can tell it is essentially an accelerometer. Since our butts do a find job of measuring that, to the same degree of accuracy that the gauge provides, I see no point. Am I missing some information that it provides?

It doesn't seem to tell me when I am braking hard enough to use the friction brakes. If there is some non-linear increase in energy loss that we should know in order to optimize our braking/acceleration, it provides no such information. (accelerating and braking could be zero energy loss if the whole thing was magically friction free (including the electronics)).

However, this type of debate can go on a different topic. There's little chance of getting Nissan to provide a software update to fix the fact that they blew a bunch of development money on utterly useless displays that can only distract the driver.

Regarding the fact that the Auto mode controls the fan and does an absolutely crap job of it, and they advertised that it had an automatic climate control, and it should be fixable for cheap, I think we should complain and see if we can get that fixed.

 

[bradleygibson]

I'd rather have seen an efficiency gauge with a greater range (it maxes out too easily)...

The problem with the efficiency gauge is they represent it in miles/kwh when they should use kwh/mi. The former is very logarithmic, the latter is linear.

Couldn't agree more. I was going to write that too, but I thought it might not make sense--you've summarized it nicely.

Incidentally, I did see a video of a European Leaf with the dash display reading kWh/km. I went back to my car to look for such a setting, but no dice. . Maybe that's what Europeans get instead of a miles option?

 

[bradleygibson]

I'd also like a regen/mech braking indicator.

As for a butt accelerometer, I use the bubbles to maximize range when I'm driving to the limit of the car's range. I want to know how much energy I'm drawing from the pack, not necessarily how much I'm accelerating. Two examples where the two do not equate well: highway driving and driving uphill. The bubbles definitely help me to stretch mileage when I need to do so.

I do find myself using the bubbles though, and the little, subtle regen circles.

I'm not talking about looking at the thing. I mean getting useful information that one can act on out of it. As far as I can tell it is essentially an accelerometer. Since our butts do a find job of measuring that, to the same degree of accuracy that the gauge provides, I see no point. Am I missing some information that it provides?

It doesn't seem to tell me when I am braking hard enough to use the friction brakes. If there is some non-linear increase in energy loss that we should know in order to optimize our braking/acceleration, it provides no such information. (accelerating and braking could be zero energy loss if the whole thing was magically friction free (including the electronics)).

However, this type of debate can go on a different topic. There's little chance of getting Nissan to provide a software update to fix the fact that they blew a bunch of development money on utterly useless displays that can only distract the driver.

Regarding the fact that the Auto mode controls the fan and does an absolutely crap job of it, and they advertised that it had an automatic climate control, and it should be fixable for cheap, I think we should complain and see if we can get that fixed.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I'll probably just sound like a fan boy by saying it but I find the guesometer, bars and bubbles to be useful and remarkably accurate in doing what they are mostly there for, IMHO, to give you rapid feedback so that you can moderate your efficiency and make it home without getting stranded on the side of the road. You have to admit, there are hardly any stories on this board about folks getting stranded, which is kind of surprising in a way if you think about it. I would have guessed before owning and driving this car that strandings would be an issue. I don't pay attention to the guesometer at start up, it's totally erroneous at that point and not meant to be relied on, maybe it shouldn't even come on till you've been driving for a bit. I do have a decent idea of how far my car can go at various speeds and conditions and use the displays to gauge precisely how much slower I have to go or how much faster I can go to get where I need to get to. Only critical when I'm cutting it close, like a 73 mile, mostly highway trip from Shoreline to Olympia in below 40's, which wouldn't be possible without the feedback loop. Many times now I have clicked the trip odometer and modulated my habits to land me at the destination down to the last mile of range... so much so I don't even stress much about it anymore, I am pretty certain what the car is capable of and how I can maximize it's performance if I must. In that way, the system is brilliant and far better than anything my gas cars have, in fact a lack of such a gauge is exactly why so many gas cars get stranded on the side of the road. The whole thing needs improvements, but for telling me how much I can squeeze out of a battery toward the end, its advanced beyond any battery management system I have on any other device.

So, did you take your car to a dealer yet and figure out if the heater/CC is working properly? My beef with the CC is how much juice it uses and wanting more control over it, but as for it working to heat up quickly or keep a constant temperature when I put in in auto mode, it heats up faster than my ICE car and keeps a pretty steady temp and being able to prewarm is not just a necessity but turning out to be quite a luxury. I still think you may have a malfunctioning system, so get it checked out, it would be unfortunate if you were going through all this frustration over a malfunction and not a design flaw. If it's working properly and you just don't like it, well then so be it, you have a right to your opinion, I just find other aspects of the climate control to be a higher priority issue.

I do find myself using the bubbles though, and the little, subtle regen circles.

I'm not talking about looking at the thing. I mean getting useful information that one can act on out of it. As far as I can tell it is essentially an accelerometer. Since our butts do a find job of measuring that, to the same degree of accuracy that the gauge provides, I see no point. Am I missing some information that it provides?

It doesn't seem to tell me when I am braking hard enough to use the friction brakes. If there is some non-linear increase in energy loss that we should know in order to optimize our braking/acceleration, it provides no such information. (accelerating and braking could be zero energy loss if the whole thing was magically friction free (including the electronics)).

However, this type of debate can go on a different topic. There's little chance of getting Nissan to provide a software update to fix the fact that they blew a bunch of development money on utterly useless displays that can only distract the driver.

Regarding the fact that the Auto mode controls the fan and does an absolutely crap job of it, and they advertised that it had an automatic climate control, and it should be fixable for cheap, I think we should complain and see if we can get that fixed.

 

[thankyouOB]

I do find myself using the bubbles though, and the little, subtle regen circles.

I'm not talking about looking at the thing. I mean getting useful information that one can act on out of it. As far as I can tell it is essentially an accelerometer. Since our butts do a find job of measuring that, to the same degree of accuracy that the gauge provides, I see no point. Am I missing some information that it provides?

It doesn't seem to tell me when I am braking hard enough to use the friction brakes. If there is some non-linear increase in energy loss that we should know in order to optimize our braking/acceleration, it provides no such information. (accelerating and braking could be zero energy loss if the whole thing was magically friction free (including the electronics)).

However, this type of debate can go on a different topic. There's little chance of getting Nissan to provide a software update to fix the fact that they blew a bunch of development money on utterly useless displays that can only distract the driver.

Regarding the fact that the Auto mode controls the fan and does an absolutely crap job of it, and they advertised that it had an automatic climate control, and it should be fixable for cheap, I think we should complain and see if we can get that fixed.

I disagree with all of this, in fact and tone. I am with Gasless 100%.
the bubbles are good guidance on efficiency and I have no problem with the heater since forum members pointed out that the AC is not AC and should be left alone when using Auto in trying to heat the car.
I pre-heat and use Auto and it works well.
It took a few weeks to figure out, and a trip to the dealer (coupled with tire rotation) to verify that my system had no issues and needed no repair.
The key is to be patient and use Auto, and dont fiddle with it.

 

[cwerdna]

If electric seats make sense in an ICE car, they make even more sense in an electric car. Do we have electric seats? No.

They did not comprehend that the car is used 99.9% of the time going to/from the garage charger, and spent way too much engineering time showing me where other charging stations are as if this was a low range gas car. Instead they should have spent that engineering time to make a system that provides the information about whether home is within range. The low energy warning should not sound when I am nearing home, it should sound when home is on the edge of range and I deviate from the route home. The HVAC system should not spend energy if getting home is going to be a problem.

FWIW, the '12 Leaf includes the CWP as a forced feature which includes heated seats. I'm irked by it being a forced feature, having the extra cost and the useless for me battery heater. The battery heater will never activate anywhere my Leaf would go (if I finally end up getting one).

As for your other scenarios, I'm sure the car has full knowledge of the future and where you intend to go... not.

 

[johntaves]

I find the guesometer, bars and bubbles to be useful and remarkably accurate in doing what they are mostly there for, IMHO, to give you rapid feedback so that you can moderate your efficiency and make it home without getting stranded on the side of the road.

The white bubbles tell you nothing more than how hard you are pushing on the pedal in the ridiculous units of white bubbles. This is not an efficiency gauge. You cannot maximize range by minimizing right side white bubbles, and maximizing left side white bubbles. We don't know where that optimum efficient acceleration deceleration point is.

You have to admit, there are hardly any stories on this board about folks getting stranded, which is kind of surprising in a way if you think about it.

I don't think this is surprising in the least. An electric car is used in a different way than a gas car. When you set out on your journey, you decide if you can make it there or not. If you conclude that you can't get there, you take the gas car. With a gas car, you don't make that decision at the start of the journey. Instead you check the gauge every now and then as you drive. If you forget to check it, you run out. With the electric car, you don't forget to check it before the journey because you don't forget that you are in an electric car. This concept was lost on Nissan.

So, did you take your car to a dealer yet and figure out if the heater/CC is working properly? ...

I did take it to the dealer. The technician was useless. He was incapable of discussing how it should work. He was also incapable of discussing how Nissan designed it to work. At a second trip to the dealer, a different tech and I compared how another Leaf worked, and it seemed the same as mine, and the same as others have stated in this thread. No more than 4/7 fan speed, regardless of how cold it is.

...it heats up faster than my ICE car.

I did not create this thread because I needed people to make up excuses for why I should be happy with it. They advertised that it had an Automatic Climate Control, and I want what I paid for. It does not automatically run the fan hard to heat the interior as fast as it can. It will heat/cool the interior much faster if I manually run up the fan. If I have to manually control it to do the most basic function properly, then it is not automatic, and therefore not as advertised.

I am not interested in rationalizations for feeling good about it. I just want it fixed.

 

[johntaves]

the bubbles are good guidance on efficiency ...

You have simply made this up. How many white bubbles is the most efficient acceleration? How many bubbles it the most efficient braking? Why isn't there any indication of that on the gauge? You've invented kool-aide, sold it to yourself, and drank it. Nissan is complicit by putting a useless gauge in there which basically tricked you into thinking it was something it is not.

The key is to be patient and use Auto, and dont fiddle with it.

No, I am not going to be patient. I paid for an auto system. Yes, it heats the car, eventually, but that's not what anyone with any basic comprehension of what an electric car can do, should expect.

Again, this thread is not about how many different ways we can think up to give Nissan a pass on this, or how many ways we can dream up goofy rationalizations to put ourselves in a "don't worry be happy" frame of mind.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

well the Kool-aide must be making me hallucinate that I'm consistently able to add the trip odometer to GOM, keeping an eye on overall bars and stick to 2-3 bubbles and go 80 miles in cold whether and hilly terrain on the freeway without looking at any of the charts going around, when in actuality AAA is getting me home every time, :lol: . Some of us are able to use the gauges with absolute precision... they work! your experience is different, so be it, but it's not gospel and neither is mine for that matter.

the bubbles are good guidance on efficiency ...

You have simply made this up. How many white bubbles is the most efficient acceleration? How many bubbles it the most efficient braking? Why isn't there any indication of that on the gauge? You've invented kool-aide, sold it to yourself, and drank it. Nissan is complicit by putting a useless gauge in there which basically tricked you into thinking it was something it is not.

The key is to be patient and use Auto, and dont fiddle with it.

No, I am not going to be patient. I paid for an auto system. Yes, it heats the car, eventually, but that's not what anyone with any basic comprehension of what an electric car can do, should expect.

Again, this thread is not about how many different ways we can think up to give Nissan a pass on this, or how many ways we can dream up goofy rationalizations to put ourselves in a "don't worry be happy" frame of mind.

 

[johntaves]

well the Kool-aide must be making me hallucinate that I'm consistently able to add the trip odometer to GOM, keeping an eye on overall bars and stick to 2-3 bubbles and go 80 miles in cold whether and hilly terrain on the freeway without looking at any of the charts going around...

None of this proves that the gauge is helping you achieve better efficiency than if you did not have the gauge. You have invented the proof that justifies your belief. The fact remains that the gauge only provides a vague measure power going to/from the battery, and that is not a measure of efficiency.

they work! your experience is different, so be it, but it's not gospel and neither is mine for that matter.

Your beliefs about that gauge are indeed gospel. The fact that the gauge does not show efficiency is an engineering fact. This has nothing to do with experience.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

If it's an engineering fact that the gauges on the dash don't act as a guide to efficiency, then I must be getting very good at long math and Nissan must be misleading us in the owners manual. The power meter is not an accelerometer, I quote from the owners manual "this meter displays the actual traction motor power consumption and the regenerative brake power provided to the Li-ion battery." I can use the gauges to go fast and hard along varying terrain to a DTZ of 60 miles, or lighten up to go 70 or go very conservatively to 80 miles and end up precisely at "---" every time... tracking efficiency with precision. More often I pick a comfort zone of say two or three bars and divvy the rest up over the miles I'm planning on driving using the gauges (MPkW, DTZ, Power Meter, available charge bars even factoring in the battery temp meter and of course experience). Very similar guesometers are in air integrated dive computers with the same wild swings in numbers on a "full tank" (because most emmediate usage rate is extrapolated over the entire remainder) and more accurate estimation towards empty, with the same DTZ approach. When left to charts when I was first into diving, I had a very hard time doing all the long math in my head to calculate how respiration rate and depth effect gas consumption and decompression. some people swore that the computers where a crutch and just weren't accurate, while over time the stats proved they are more accurate than the average monkey mind and are now used by everyone who can afford them. A computer is much better at taking rapid samples of the fluctuations than anything my brain can keep up with, and it's the same with the Leaf's. Continuous changes in terrain/elevation change, temperature, speed of traffic all scramble anything I can do with the charts going around unless I'm on a level race track, which is never. I can't leave my house without going up and down hills... maybe you drive mostly in flat places? If you think the bubbles are nothing more than an accelerometer than try driving the car up a hill, maintaining the same number of bubbles and watch what happens to your speed... you will decelerate ... the power meter is not an accelerometer. the key is focusing on the bubbles not the speed for improved efficiency. If the proprioceptor in you butt is that good then you have an unusual and enviable talent, which unfortunately is not applicable to most of the rest of us. Surfing floating voltages is a bit of an art more than an exact science, which exacting, empirical minded folks like yourself find particularly frustrating. Instead of taking the frustration out on the manufacturer, you seem smart, perhaps you can help come up with the next breakthrough. What may come out of such frustration is the desire to forge ahead and find even better solutions, and I look forward to that, but until then, we've got one that works pretty well if you focus on what it's designed to do!

Oh, and BTW, I don't see your stats, what model did you buy and how many miles do you have on your car?

well the Kool-aide must be making me hallucinate that I'm consistently able to add the trip odometer to GOM, keeping an eye on overall bars and stick to 2-3 bubbles and go 80 miles in cold whether and hilly terrain on the freeway without looking at any of the charts going around...

None of this proves that the gauge is helping you achieve better efficiency than if you did not have the gauge. You have invented the proof that justifies your belief. The fact remains that the gauge only provides a vague measure power going to/from the battery, and that is not a measure of efficiency.

they work! your experience is different, so be it, but it's not gospel and neither is mine for that matter.

Your beliefs about that gauge are indeed gospel. The fact that the gauge does not show efficiency is an engineering fact. This has nothing to do with experience.

 

[johntaves]

"this meter displays the actual traction motor power consumption and the regenerative brake power provided to the Li-ion battery."

Edited...

This means it is NOT an efficiency gauge. Efficiency is how much energy is used to go how far. The bubbles simply tell you how much energy is used/gained by the traction motor. It does not divide by the speed and it does not factor in the hills. For low speeds, before wind resistance takes over as a major source of drag, the bubbles will match the feeling in your butt and that does include up and down hills. When going up a hill, the car slows, but the acceleration feeling in your butt matches the bubbles because the power is either going to kinetic energy (more speed) or potential energy (up a hill), and both have the same acceleration feeling in your butt. At higher speeds, wind and rolling resistance take over as a major source of energy loss, and the bubbles to butt feeling ratio is shifted up the dial. This is high school physics.

This is something the Nissan engineers certainly knew. It is inexcusable that they gave us a gauge that has fooled you into thinking you are getting efficiency information. Nissan could easily have done the math using the computers that the car has, and given us a proper efficiency gauge. They would need to put an accelerometer into the car, because if you only use the acceleration you can determine from the speed of the car, you ignore the hills. You also need to know the mass. The calculation is to subtract the acceleration (the feeling in your butt) from the energy going in/out of the battery (or traction motor if you want to ignore other energy uses). This tells you the energy that can not be recovered. Divide the distance by this number and you have miles per joule, which is the efficiency number you want. (this is the general idea, not the exact formula)

An accelerometer is cheap, and the math is trivial. My guess is that how aggressively you accelerate is not very important for efficiency. If you accelerate like a snail, you will get worse range, but nobody will do this extreme because the honks would be annoying. Similarly if you accelerate hard, you will get worse range. I will bet there is a large range where it does not make any difference how hard/soft you accelerate. I will bet the biggest factor for range is how fast you travel. The optimum is 38 according to something I read somewhere. I will bet that there is a large range say plus or minus 10 miles per hour that all produce excellent efficiency. Above say 45 (my guess) the wind resistance starts rising non-linearly and therefore starts to really hammer your range.

Strictly speaking this efficiency information is not really necessary. The percent of trips where the car is taken to the extreme end of range, where the driver needs to drive efficiently, is certainly less than 1%. I have only heard the lady say I am low on energy 4 times in 4000 miles, and she said it within 4 miles of my home each time. I never had any need to conserve. It sounds like your trip to/from Shoreline to Olympia is extreme and you probably need to drive efficiently. However, I am certain those bubbles are a total distraction. If you are slowing on hills and speeding up on downhills to limit the bubbles, you are not only pissing off drivers behind you, you are worsening your range. The major factor by far, in that trip, is your speed. Set the cruise at some number that gets you there, and your efficiency is most likely maxed. The cruise will prevent the car from going above whatever speed you set, and the higher speeds are a certain waste of energy. The cruise will recover energy going down hill, whereas letting the speed rise will waste it. The gauge is useless, and probably has misled you.

A proper instantaneous efficiency gauge would be useful, but not terribly necessary. The bubbles are completely useless, and the Nissan engineers know this. They knew everything I said above when they designed the car, and it is inexcusable that they put that gauge in there. Not only is it a waste of money, it is clearly distracting some drivers.

We should not give them a pass on a pathetic HVAC system. They should fix it. One very important feature of an EV is instant on heat, and heat/cool without idling a gas engine. Any automatic climate control for an EV should be easier to design than one for an ICE. I expected it when I purchased the car. I was looking forward to a car that had an HVAC that was better than any gas car, precisely because it was an electric car. My 72 cadillac's auto system performed better than the Leaf, and not because it had a huge ICE to generate heat. The Leaf produces plenty of heat too.

 

[davewill]

"this meter displays the actual traction motor power consumption and the regenerative brake power provided to the Li-ion battery."

... This means it is NOT an efficiency gauge. ...

You're the only one who's confused and wants it to be one. The rest of us already know what it is and find it useful in improving our efficiency.

I was looking forward to a car that had an HVAC that was better than any gas car, precisely because it was an electric car. My 72 cadillac performed better, and not because it had a huge ICE to generate heat. The Leaf produces plenty of heat too.

Actually, yes it was exactly because the heat was free. The LEAF can't afford to waste juice producing "plenty of heat".

 

[thankyouOB]

I think the efficiency gauge is the circle around the trees. it is doing what taves talks about two posts above.

On another note: there has been much discussion about how to use the time-to-charge-complete gauge (set at 80% or 100%) to assess state of charge.
I saw it go by but did NOT pay attention in detail as I was not ready for all that data. Can someone please tell me what thread has the best discussion of using the time-to-charge gauge on the dash (set with the four buttons on the left)?
thank you.

 

[johntaves]

I think the efficiency gauge is the circle around the trees. it is doing what taves talks about two posts above.

I have been wondering if that is the case. I can't imagine a dumber user interface. Why not express the efficiency in units of miles per watt or just range? In other words there should be a more instantaneous range gauge, so that it is trivial to know the answer to the question "If I set the cruise at 60, and conditions like wind, road friction, etc.. remain the same, how far can I go?"

Nissan could have easily supplied that gauge, instead they wasted space and money on the idiotic circle thing, trees, and white bubbles.

 

[davewill]

... In other words there should be a more instantaneous range gauge, so that it is trivial to know the answer to the question "If I set the cruise at 60, will I get there?"

Nissan could have easily supplied that gauge, instead they wasted space and money on the idiotic circle thing, trees, and white bubbles.

Hope you get the pony, too.

You really need to read all the other threads that went on here before you came along. The gauge you want is literally impossible to create as it requires clairvoyance.

 

[johntaves]

"this meter displays the actual traction motor power consumption and the regenerative brake power provided to the Li-ion battery."

... This means it is NOT an efficiency gauge. ...

You're the only one who's confused and wants it to be one. The rest of us already know what it is and find it useful in improving our efficiency.

In that post I tried to explain the situation without resorting to equations and formulas. This is basic high school physics. You'll have to pay attention to it, if you want to comprehend how you have been duped. It seems like you don't want to know that. Maybe the essential bit of information you are missing is the fact that energy leaving the battery going into the traction motor is not necessarily a loss of energy. You will get some of it back when you hit the brakes. The gauge does not tell you what you won't get back, and it certainly does not tell you how far you went for that loss of energy.

I was looking forward to a car that had an HVAC that was better than any gas car, precisely because it was an electric car. My 72 cadillac performed better, and not because it had a huge ICE to generate heat. The Leaf produces plenty of heat too.

Actually, yes it was exactly because the heat was free. The LEAF can't afford to waste juice producing "plenty of heat".

The Cadillac and the Leaf both produce plenty of heat. The Cadillac's auto air system delivered it to me automatically. The Leaf's automatic system does not deliver it to me automatically. I have to bump up the fan button to get it quicker. This means it is not automatic. This means they delivered a car that does not match their advertisement.

The LEAF is my tool. The electricity is my electricity. You and the Nissan engineers should not make a value judgement that it would be a waste to deliver the heat when in auto mode. An automatic system, when in auto mode, should assume we want the temperature to get to the target as fast as it can. It should not assume we are on the very rare trip where we need to scratch out the best range. My tool should not assume I was joking when I set the temperature to 72. It should not assume I want to get to that temperature slowly.

 

[johntaves]

... In other words there should be a more instantaneous range gauge, so that it is trivial to know the answer to the question "If I set the cruise at 60, will I get there?"

Nissan could have easily supplied that gauge, instead they wasted space and money on the idiotic circle thing, trees, and white bubbles.

Hope you get the pony, too.

You really need to read all the other threads that went on here before you came along. The gauge you want is literally impossible to create as it requires clairvoyance.

You are correct. I should have said "If I set the cruise at 60, and conditions (road surface, head wind, etc) remain the same, how far can I go?"

I would appreciate pointers to other threads.

 

[davewill]

... An automatic system, when in auto mode, should assume we want the temperature to get to the target as fast as it can. It should not assume we are on the very rare trip where we need to scratch out the best range. My tool should not assume I was joking when I set the temperature to 72. It should not assume I want to get to that temperature slowly.

Your opinion, which I doubt many people here would agree with. I want the automatic system to work with the rest of the car to maximize comfort AND range.

You are correct. I should have said "If I set the cruise at 60, and conditions (road surface, head wind, etc) remain the same, how far can I go?"

I would appreciate pointers to other threads.

The miles per kWh graph essentially does what you're asking for, BTW.

P.S. The threads on all these issues are endless...you can search if you really care to read.

 

[gbarry42]

On another note: there has been much discussion about how to use the time-to-charge-complete gauge (set at 80% or 100%) to assess state of charge. [...] Can someone please tell me what thread...

I found this by searching "soc 110". That's where it started. Dunno which is best. I've started taking data from this gauge recently, too.