Public L2 charging $1 - 1.50/h reasonable?

[DaveEV]

Ca. Average Electric rate is 12 cents per kw/h

Not sure where you are getting that number, but looking at average rates is very misleading - never mind that your average rate is significantly below what is really average.

Average cost of a kWh in California is around $0.15 [1].

Typical daytime rates or peak rates when most people will be using public infrastructure is typically $0.25 / kWh if not more.

A LEAF draws about 3.8 kW when charging.

Using a average rate of $0.15/kWh, $0.57 just to provide the electricity.
Using a peak rate of $0.25/kWh, $0.95 just to provide the electricity.

$1.00-$1.50/hour is a very reasonable public rate in California for 16A charging.

But what about those cars that can charge at 240Vx30A - now it's $1.08 - $1.80 (some sites may only provide 208Vx30A service, which would cost $0.93 - $1.55.

You'd have to charge $2/hour to make sure you don't lose money on the electricity.

[1] http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/energy/Electric+Rates/ENGRD/ratesNCharts_elect.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I do not think that Macy's and Kohl’s are making any money on the chargers that are installed at their locations nor do I think they care about making money on those charging stations. They are more than likely doing it for the Green credibility that they will project.

Sure - they might look at it as part of a marketing effort - but now you're moving the goal posts.

So I think Blink is trying to be a little to greed which may backfire and scare EV drivers away.

I highly doubt Blink is trying to scare plug-in drivers away. If they do, they'll quickly go out of business.

I don't charge at public chargers very often so having to pay that $30 annual fee and then getting charged $1 per hour will put me well over gas prices.

Yeah, you're right. :roll: You can "Just drive the Prius" then. Don't whine when they pull out all the charging stations and you can't find one because everyone decides that they'll just drive the Prius when they are comparing the cost of charging during peak times ($0.25/kWh) to their cost of charging at home during off-peak times ($0.13/kWh) and completely ignoring the cost of installing and maintaining public infrastructure.

PS - The annual fee is optional - you can get the free membership and pay a bit more per hour - $1.50. If you plug-in less than 60 hours / year on public infrastructure, there's no reason to pay for the annual fee.

Personally, I'll happily pay $2/hour to charge if it allows me to drive my LEAF instead of my Prius. Saving money on fuel isn't the only reason I bought the LEAF - reducing emissions is #1 reason I bought it and in the end - the Prius is still a stinker compared to the LEAF (never mind much less enjoyable to drive).

 

[ColumbiaRiverGorge]

Here in Hood River the Co-op charges 6.15 cents a k/Wh, up from 5.75 cents a k/Wh, from the first 5k I put on the car. My co-worker in The Dalles (giant Columbia River dam location) charges me their going rate of 8 cents a k/Wh so I can trickle charge while at work, to run at 30-80% charging. When I go to Portland, and beyond, I will not hesitate to pay for charging, due to the need to support a public charging infrastructure. I imagine my future QC charges may be my biggest public electron fee, because QC is range freedom. I love my LEAF.

 

[Cheezmo]

Average Electric rate is 12 cents per kw/h the LEAF takes in 3.3 kW per hour so the electric cost should be 39.6 cents.

I don't know about SDG&E, but up here summer season commercial rates start at $0.205/kWh. And the LEAF pulls 3.85kW from the wall, not 3.3kW. So you are already up to 79 cents/hour for electricity before you even start to worry about all the other things people have mentioned here. No way would I try to start a business based on $1/hour charging unless I had a lot of side benefits I could monetize.

Ray

My rate in Plano, TX is 0.07/kWh.

 

[Cheezmo]

Anyway, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that public charging will die, because electric car owners are too damned cheap.

I don't think it is fair to say someone is "cheap" because they don't want to pay double what they have been for transportation on a per mile basis.

I think it will fail because it it not economical given the overhead of the chargers and cost to deliver the energy. Fortunately charging at home is economical so that will continue to succeed.

 

[planet4ever]

Please don't keep quoting residential rates, folks. In most places residential and commercial rates are very different. Public charging will almost always have to be based on commercial rates (except when it includes solar, which does provide a great opportunity). And marccbr is in California, so rates in other parts of the country are really beside the point.

As drees and I are saying, you simply cannot make a business case in California on $1, or even $1.50, charging. Look at it this way: You are investing $3,000 or more in an outdoor unit open to weather, misuse, copper thieves, and vandals, and your gross income will rarely be more than $15/day, much of which will go to pay for electricity.

Ray

 

[philipscoggins]

I would consider $1.00 a bargain, $1.50 fine & $2.00 high, but not enough to discourage charging (if needed)

Philip

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Maybe we should start with getting PUDs to provide favorable rates to charging stations. Should be ready enough to monitor

 

[TonyWilliams]

For all the cheap EV drivers we have today, should we have a future where Joe SixPack and Joe Businessman drive EV's, they just aren't going to be making back o the napkin calculations to determine whether they should Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM) or the EV.

But, I also predict that it might take 10-20 years to get there (short of a world wide oil issue). In the interim, companies like Blink will fail so hard and fast without government handouts, it will make your head spin. You couldn't operate a hot dog stand on $10-$20 in gross revenue per day, and support a phone call center, maintenance, sharing the revenue (usually 50-50) with the host, insurance, etc.

It's not even close. So, I predict many of these will go unused and in disrepair, just like many of the previous generation of EV chargers did.

Certainly, the same is true of enroute DC fast charging, except these units are almost necessary for ICE comparable utilization of an EV. Again, of course the napkin calculating, Prius driving crowd will go out of their way to never pay for this service (it will be more expensive than a Prius for generations; as gasoline goes up, so will the efficiency of the Prius), but I do see the Joe SixPack using them. Just like they use that really expensive gasoline station near the airport to return their rental car.

 

[essaunders]

A garage here in NH has a single aerovironent EVSE. Parking is $.75 an hour and charging is (supposedly) $1.25/ hr.
I just took a 130 mile trip which (could have - this time "I just drove my Prius") had this garage as my destination/midpoint parking. I did the math and, based on charging in that garage and at my home, the EV cost and the Prius cost were the same.

My problem is with the 5+ hours i would have to be at my destination (to recover charge) I was only there ~2.5 hours. So here its not the cost but the slow charger putting me in the Prius.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A garage here in NH has a single aerovironent EVSE. Parking is $.75 an hour and charging is (supposedly) $1.25/ hr.
I just took a 130 mile trip which (could have - this time "I just drove my Prius") had this garage as my destination/midpoint parking. I did the math and, based on charging in that garage and at my home, the EV cost and the Prius cost were the same.

Of course you did the math, and you made my point. Joe SixPack won't, but he also won't wait for hours for a charge. He will just pay the money for a DC charge, like he does for gasoline currently, and he wouldn't have a spare Prius to make that an option.

 

[essaunders]

A garage ....

Of course you did the math, and you made my point. Joe SixPack won't, but he also won't wait for hours for a charge. He will just pay the money for a DC charge, like he does for gasoline currently, and he wouldn't have a spare Prius to make that an option.

My point was that the current range/charging speed make the leaf marginal for my specific 130 mile trip. A dc charger network or bigger battery tip that balance quickly. EVs need to break into a mature transportation infrastructure.

The cost of the charging will always be weighed by someone who has (or wants to make) a choice. I support public charging being more than "gas" because then the volts and PiPs won't clog the spots!

 

[DaveEV]

My point was that the current range/charging speed make the leaf marginal for my specific 130 mile trip. A dc charger network or bigger battery tip that balance quickly.

You don't even need DC QC to make your trip. If 5h of L2 would have been sufficient, you really just needed 30A+ L2 charging (6.6kW+) to have made it work.

 

[Cheezmo]

I think Austin has the one of the biggest ChargePoint L2 networks, and it seems like a joke to me. You can use the ChargePoint app to see which ones are in use (1 of the 70 or so was in use the last time I looked and that was me figuring I should run down the $25 they made me prepay when I signed up). I charged for an hour while eating a couple of blocks away as it was at a community college kind of near a mall but closer to the Wendy's across the street.

So, location was bad, price was high. And I got like 8 miles of range for the trouble. And I spend 30 minutes sitting in the car while charging to get to 1 hour because of the stupid $2 (1 hour) minimum.

I like charging with a cord out my hotel window better.

DC QC makes sense. I'll never understand high priced L2 networks like this although it comes close to making sense once 6.6Kw chargers are more common.

And as to home vs. commercial rates. I don't care what they are, but I do care how much electric vs. gas miles are. I'm simply not going to pay more than I pay for gas to drive electric. I already paid that premium by buying the more expensive cars and setting up the chargers at home.

 

[JPWhite]

Anyway, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that public charging will die, because electric car owners are too damned cheap.

I would agree with you for L2 charging, the cost bump to the consumer for a marginal benefit will kill it.

L3 charging on the other hand I believe can reasonably charge a decent amount for its use, the utility to the driver is clear, making trips possible that were not previously.

 

[esounds]

I was in Oakland, Ca the other day attending a festival. There were spots on the street but I figured I might need a little more juice for later so I went to park in the downtown garage which has charge point stations. I don't mind paying a dollar an hour, but the charge point chargers there were set at $2/hr on top of the $2.50/hour to park in the garage... I left and parked on the street.

 

[derkraut]

I was in Oakland, Ca the other day attending a festival. There were spots on the street but I figured I might need a little more juice for later so I went to park in the downtown garage which has charge point stations. I don't mind paying a dollar an hour, but the charge point chargers there were set at $2/hr on top of the $2.50/hour to park in the garage... I left and parked on the street.

Now--that's a ripoff. I would never patronize such a company.

 

[esounds]

Yeah I think most of the price gouging is more from pure ignorance on how the charging stations work. Most people don't even know how long it takes to charge a car or don't do the math to figure out how much is it actually costing the person charging. Even the designers and marketers of the stations don't know, it's just that new.

Case in point: At the Bishop Ranch charging station in San Ramon, Ca there is 1 quick charge and 2 L2 stations all the spots are marked with 1/2 hour maximum. I ignored this sign because I figured it was a mistake because who is going to park at a L2 for 1/2 hour? (My commute was 80 miles round trip) I started parking at the L2 and charging up daily. One day I received a warning for parking there longer than 1/2 hour. When I called the office they said that the station is just for a 'quick charge' to get you on for a few more miles. I had to explain to them how L2 and Quick Charge differ and that 1/2 hour at an L2 isn't even worth the effort to plug in. They said that they didn't realize this and they had been getting complaints about my car being parked there for hours at a time. They said they would let security know that it was okay for EV cars to park in the L2 spots longer. The warning ticket I had gotten said the they would tow my car next time. Even though I had talked to the office the last thing I wanted was someone towing my car and the hassle associated with that. So I just started charging up to 100% each night and doing the round trip on 1 charge rather than risk coming out and my car being gone because someone didn't get the memo.

I think its up to us to educate the public on how EVs work. If you don't feel it's fair then tell who ever owns the station. Explain to them that their 3000$ investment isn't going to get much use if it costs more the equivalent of 6$/gallon gasoline to use. There is a good chance they have never even seen an EV let alone know how it works or had never even thought about this.

 

[LEAFer]

Case in point: At the Bishop Ranch charging station in San Ramon, Ca there is 1 quick charge and 2 L2 stations all the spots are marked with 1/2 hour maximum. I ignored this sign because I figured it was a mistake ...

They need to change the "markings".

 

[Pipcecil]

My problem with Blink is the "charge you for time plugged in" While i understand the intention (and it is a noble one), it creates more hassels than it solves problems (like DRM on mp3 files). Frankly, I won't charge on a blink unless I know for sure I can go unplug it again if it gets full. Many times, this isn't the case (like blinks at a movie theater or at an airport). I am not going to leave a movie and fly back just to unplug. The annoyance is very extreme too when I am shopping about, and have to stop in the middle, walk back and uplug - sometimes I have walked very far away. Finally I don't hassle moving my car, I just unplug. I think many owners do this. If my spot was premium (i.e. all the charging spots were taken) I would move. But here in DFW, not so much - I am the only non-ICE car parking in these spots so what motivation do I have to move?

I don't mind too much paying for blink, but the hassle of having to run back and uplug on my outing is too much that I just avoid them now unless I am extremely low on charge.

 

[JPWhite]

My problem with Blink is the "charge you for time plugged in" While i understand the intention (and it is a noble one), it creates more hassels than it solves problems (like DRM on mp3 files). Frankly, I won't charge on a blink unless I know for sure I can go unplug it again if it gets full. Many times, this isn't the case (like blinks at a movie theater or at an airport). I am not going to leave a movie and fly back just to unplug. The annoyance is very extreme too when I am shopping about, and have to stop in the middle, walk back and uplug - sometimes I have walked very far away. Finally I don't hassle moving my car, I just unplug. I think many owners do this. If my spot was premium (i.e. all the charging spots were taken) I would move. But here in DFW, not so much - I am the only non-ICE car parking in these spots so what motivation do I have to move?

I don't mind too much paying for blink, but the hassle of having to run back and uplug on my outing is too much that I just avoid them now unless I am extremely low on charge.

Hotels where owners charge while they are asleep, people are clearly not going to set the alarm at 2am and run outside in their pyjamas just to avoid charges, nor should they be encouraged to do so by the charging scheme. No one is likely to need the space at 2am, it makes no sense to encourage disconnects at this time of day.

During peak hours, charging for time attached makes sense, it will encourage turnover. Off peak times one should be charged just for charge time. That would take care of unfairness of charges in many locations. However airport parking is an exception. All the more reason to use an third party parking lot service.