Range Chart

[LEAFfan]

Update on 2013 SOC readout for a new battery. For a degraded battery, I can only assume that that there will be higher % for the battery warnings, since the 2013 LEAF readout is "usable" SOC based. At 50% degradation, a full charge would show 100%, therefore the fixed Gid value warnings would happen at roughly 30% and 10% "usable" SOC:

2013 LEAF SOC readout, New battery, no degradation:

17% - Low Battery Warning = Gid raw value 49 (17.4%) = Gid2 15.3%

8% - Very Low Battery = Gid raw value 24 (8.6%) = Gid2 6.2%

0% - Turtle = Gid raw value 7 (2.5%) = Gid2 0%

On my gauge, VLBW is ALWAYS 8.5% and Turtle is 1.4% at slow speeds, 2.4% at freeway speeds.

*************

2013 LEAF SOC readout, old battery, 50% degradation:

34% - Low Battery Warning = Gid raw value 49 (17.4%) = Gid2 15.3%

16% - Very Low Battery = Gid raw value 24 (8.6%) = Gid2 6.2%

0% - Turtle = Gid raw value 7 (2.5%) = Gid2 0%

*************

Gid2 formulas: %factor ((Gid raw value - Gid Turtle raw value) / (Max Gid raw value - Gid Turtle))

100 ((281 -7) / (281 - 7)) = 100% [fully charged new battery]

100 ((144 -7) / (281 - 7)) = 50% [half depleted new battery, or 50% degraded but fully charged]

100 ((49 - 7) / (281 - 7)) = 15.3% [Low Battery Warning]

100 ((24 - 7) / (281 - 7)) = 6.2% [Very Low Battery]

100 ((7 -7) / (281 - 7)) = 0% [Turtle]

 

[TonyWilliams]

8% - Very Low Battery = Gid raw value 24 (8.6%) = Gid2 6.2%

On my gauge, VLBW is ALWAYS 8.5% and Turtle is 1.4% at slow speeds, 2.4% at freeway speeds.

Ok, I get 85.4%, so I guess I rounded the wrong way.

24 / 281 = .085409

 

[TonyWilliams]

I know somebody did some "real" math on how much power it took to raise 3350 pounds of car plus cargo up 1000 feet.

Here is a PDF showing calculation of power required to climb an incline at a given speed.

Good stuff, thanks. I'm not sure how I can convert this formula from an angle to a specific elevation delta.

 

[Nubo]

Let E1 = base economy (M/kWH)
Let E2 = revised economy (M/kWH)
Let UP = altitude gain (feet)
Let M = miles travelled

E2 = 1 / ( (1/E1) + ((1.5*UP/1000)/M) )

Not sure if that's what you're looking for? I think the existing range chart does well by just saying subtract a bar for every 1000 ft gain, and the smaller amount for descending.

Would you mind telling me how did you come up with 1.5? Curious mind wants to know.

The 1.5 is the 1.5kWH per 1000 feet climb from Tony's example.

 

[TickTock]

I know somebody did some "real" math on how much power it took to raise 3350 pounds of car plus cargo up 1000 feet.

Here is a PDF showing calculation of power required to climb an incline at a given speed.

Good stuff, thanks. I'm not sure how I can convert this formula from an angle to a specific elevation delta.

Tony, you answered your own question. The energy required to raise 3350 pounds 1000 feet is very simply 3350000 foot pounds (really). All you need to do is find the conversion factor to convert this to a unit of energy we are more familiar with. According to http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm

3350000 foot pounds = 1.262 kWh

 

[TonyWilliams]

Good stuff, thanks. I'm not sure how I can convert this formula from an angle to a specific elevation delta.

Tony, you answered your own question. The energy required to raise 3350 pounds 1000 feet is very simply 3350000 foot pounds (really). All you need to do is find the conversion factor to convert this to a unit of energy we are more familiar with. According to http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm

3350000 foot pounds = 1.262 kWh

So, our 3350 pound car with 450 pounds of people and gear is 3900 gross weight, or 3,900,000 foot pound = 1.4688 kilowatt hour.

Gosh, I guess we had some pretty good numbers on that.

 

[RegGuheert]

Good stuff, thanks. I'm not sure how I can convert this formula from an angle to a specific elevation delta.

Sorry, I thought you were trying to get at the power when climbing at a certain slope and speed. The theoretical energy is as TickTock says, but my experience is that the slope (and hence power level) makes a difference in how much energy is consumed by the LEAF.

 

[Luft]

It does seem that way but I think it's because the steeper the slope the quicker you see the power get expended. Actually the gentler the slope the greater distance one must travel for a given change in altitude thus more energy. There also could be electric motor efficiencies to consider which may not be liner at every load.

Good stuff, thanks. I'm not sure how I can convert this formula from an angle to a specific elevation delta.

Sorry, I thought you were trying to get at the power when climbing at a certain slope and speed. The theoretical energy is as TickTock says, but my experience is that the slope (and hence power level) makes a difference in how much energy is consumed by the LEAF.

 

[RegGuheert]

There also could be efficiencies to consider which may not be liner at every load.

Yes, that's the point I am getting at. The efficiency of the drivetrain+battery climbing a mountain at 50 kW is likely different than climbing at 20 kW or cruising on level ground at 10kW.

 

[DaveEV]

There also could be efficiencies to consider which may not be liner at every load.

Yes, that's the point I am getting at. The efficiency of the drivetrain+battery climbing a mountain at 50 kW is likely different than climbing at 20 kW or cruising on level ground at 10kW.

Well, drivetrain efficiency appears to be higher at higher loads than at light loads (See recent thread on Argonne report). But the amount of energy you can get out of the battery at higher loads is likely less. How much less? Hard to say!

 

[RegGuheert]

Well, drivetrain efficiency appears to be higher at higher loads than at light loads (See recent thread on Argonne report). But the amount of energy you can get out of the battery at higher loads is likely less. How much less? Hard to say!

And it seems the efficiency of the battery changes quite a bit with temperature. According the the recent Argonne data, the resistance of the battery more than doubles as the temperature drops from 110 mohm at 70F to 237 mohm at 20F. That could make quite a difference at high power levels!

 

[essaunders]

I'd like to ask a stupid question - (perhaps buried in the 38 pages of this thread, sorry)

How do read the chart?

I'm assuming - if you have a good idea of 'fuel bars' (ie, you just lost the 10th bar, 9 now displayed) you simply read the number 'above' the known 'full' fuel bar for the column of speed/efficiency you are running.

for my example, on the V7G93 chart , If I'm driving '45 exactly' and I have 9 'full' bars, I'd read 83.

I assume also that the little numbers in the Low and Very Low rows are the miles in that state

This is starting to matter for the first time in my 1.5yrs driving - I had my driveway paved and I haven't charged since last week...

 

[JPWhite]

This is starting to matter for the first time in my 1.5yrs driving - I had my driveway paved and I haven't charged since last week...

You can't run an extension cord from the house to the street? L1 overnight should be OK.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'd like to ask a stupid question - (perhaps buried in the 38 pages of this thread, sorry)

How do read the chart?

I'm assuming - if you have a good idea of 'fuel bars' (ie, you just lost the 10th bar, 9 now displayed) you simply read the number 'above' the known 'full' fuel bar for the column of speed/efficiency you are running.

for my example, on the V7G93 chart , If I'm driving '45 exactly' and I have 9 'full' bars, I'd read 83.

I assume also that the little numbers in the Low and Very Low rows are the miles in that state

This is starting to matter for the first time in my 1.5yrs driving - I had my driveway paved and I haven't charged since last week...

You've got it all figured out! I think I'll make a video how to read these.

 

[UkrainianKozak]

I wonder if the data from the chart might be incorporated into some app, like Leaf battery App, the app will simply read parameters directly from leaf, like temperatures, SOC, etc, and you can enter missing data, like number of passengers/luggage, etc... You can even do some google maps magic to read elevation gains and maybe posted speed limits along the route... And then track your progress along the route alarming if you are consuming too much energy...
Wound't it be an amazing app?

I'm Elon Musk BTW
Know how to do it roughly, but don't have time to actually do it

 

[TonyWilliams]

I wonder if the data from the chart might be incorporated into some app, like Leaf battery App, the app will simply read parameters directly from leaf, like temperatures, SOC, etc, and you can enter missing data, like number of passengers/luggage, etc... You can even do some google maps magic to read elevation gains and maybe posted speed limits along the route... And then track your progress along the route alarming if you are consuming too much energy...
Wound't it be an amazing app?

This data is already in both Android (Sorry, don't know the name) and Apple (LEAF Energy).

It's also partially in the Turbo3 battery app at "rated" range with temperature compensation.

 

[UkrainianKozak]

I wonder if the data from the chart might be incorporated into some app, like Leaf battery App, the app will simply read parameters directly from leaf, like temperatures, SOC, etc, and you can enter missing data, like number of passengers/luggage, etc... You can even do some google maps magic to read elevation gains and maybe posted speed limits along the route... And then track your progress along the route alarming if you are consuming too much energy...
Wound't it be an amazing app?

This data is already in both Android (Sorry, don't know the name) and Apple (LEAF Energy).

It's also partially in the Turbo3 battery app at "rated" range with temperature compensation.

Well, yes and no.
What I often find is that I need to enter different mpkw if I drive local vs highway, and if I go somewhere far on unknown route I always have to guess the split between highway/local driving, and most of the time I have no idea about elevation gains...
My point is that we are missing comprehensive app that will get very close to the actual distance estimation. You can do it currently using all the data, but I feel like I need to be a race navigator and spend time preparing for long trips or figuring out if I can make it... Some may like it, but it's not for everyone...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I wonder if the data from the chart might be incorporated into some app, like Leaf battery App, the app will simply read parameters directly from leaf, like temperatures, SOC, etc, and you can enter missing data, like number of passengers/luggage, etc... You can even do some google maps magic to read elevation gains and maybe posted speed limits along the route... And then track your progress along the route alarming if you are consuming too much energy...
Wound't it be an amazing app?

This data is already in both Android (Sorry, don't know the name) and Apple (LEAF Energy).

It's also partially in the Turbo3 battery app at "rated" range with temperature compensation.

Well, yes and no.
What I often find is that I need to enter different mpkw if I drive local vs highway, and if I go somewhere far on unknown route I always have to guess the split between highway/local driving, and most of the time I have no idea about elevation gains...
My point is that we are missing comprehensive app that will get very close to the actual distance estimation. You can do it currently using all the data, but I feel like I need to be a race navigator and spend time preparing for long trips or figuring out if I can make it... Some may like it, but it's not for everyone...

The LEAF Energy app uses Google map distance and elevation data, and it pulls in ambient temperature, all automatically. Of course, we didn't have battery temperature then, so that would be a logical addition. Yes, it would be awesome to import Gid values.

Obviously, weather data can be imported (wind and precipitation)

I would ideally have an automated input of most data, some kind of input device and the readout would be on the dash at the current GOM location. In other words, the current GOM would be switchable between a rated value (selectable between 2 and 5 miles per kilowatt/hour) and a calculated value based on your input route and selectable road speeds. All other data would be automatically imported, and offer an option to edit for each leg.

The current GOM would not be connected directly to the LEAF.

 

[essaunders]

This is starting to matter for the first time in my 1.5yrs driving - I had my driveway paved and I haven't charged since last week...

You can't run an extension cord from the house to the street? L1 overnight should be OK.

I could easily. I had a dedicated 20a 120v put into a lamp post half way to the street. My 12g 25' plus Evse would work fine.


Or I could drive up the driveway and park on the garage. It has been 6.5 days now.

It's more of wondering if my car really has 21 miles in it. (Just switched to one bar, 5.2miles per kwh average over last 6 days )

Edited to add. 72.8 miles so far at 5.5 on the dash.

 

[JPWhite]

This is starting to matter for the first time in my 1.5yrs driving - I had my driveway paved and I haven't charged since last week...

You can't run an extension cord from the house to the street? L1 overnight should be OK.

I could easily. I had a dedicated 20a 120v put into a lamp post half way to the street. My 12g 25' plus Evse would work fine.


Or I could drive up the driveway and park on the garage. It has been 6.5 days now.

It's more of wondering if my car really has 21 miles in it. (Just switched to one bar, 5.2miles per kwh average over last 6 days )

Edited to add. 72.8 miles so far at 5.5 on the dash.

6.5 days on one charge. Wow. Maybe I just drive too much.

How much to put the outlet on the lamp post? Does the line run back from your meter? Interesting idea. I wish more public parking lots would do the same.