Range Chart

[RegGuheert]

It's more of wondering if my car really has 21 miles in it. (Just switched to one bar, 5.2miles per kwh average over last 6 days )

Edited to add. 72.8 miles so far at 5.5 on the dash.

I wouldn't count on it! You need a new pack which is very well balanced to be able to get 21 kWh out of it. For the record, I have never gotten even 20 kWh (indicated) out of our LEAF's battery pack and one of Nissan's NTB says that 19 to 21 is normal.

 

[essaunders]

It's more of wondering if my car really has 21 miles in it. (Just switched to one bar, 5.2miles per kwh average over last 6 days )

Edited to add. 72.8 miles so far at 5.5 on the dash.

I wouldn't count on it! You need a new pack which is very well balanced to be able to get 21 kWh out of it. For the record, I have never gotten even 20 kWh (indicated) out of our LEAF's battery pack and one of Nissan's NTB says that 19 to 21 is normal.

I was reading from the 93% chart. All 12 bars - more than 1 year old.


Probably wont chance it - unless of course the current lightning storm knocks out the power for the night....

 

[RegGuheert]

It's more of wondering if my car really has 21 miles in it. (Just switched to one bar, 5.2miles per kwh average over last 6 days )

Edited to add. 72.8 miles so far at 5.5 on the dash.

I wouldn't count on it! You need a new pack which is very well balanced to be able to get 21 kWh out of it. For the record, I have never gotten even 20 kWh (indicated) out of our LEAF's battery pack and one of Nissan's NTB says that 19 to 21 is normal.

I was reading from the 93% chart. All 12 bars - more than 1 year old.


Probably wont chance it - unless of course the current lightning storm knocks out the power for the night....

Good idea using the 93% chart. I just don't believe the efficiency meter on my dash, so that is suspect to me.

How many charge bars do you have left? What is shown on the GOM? I find it's usually pretty close when it is that low. I would say if you have two or more bars left and 20-or-so showing on the GOM, you may be fine to get to 100 if you drive slowly.

FYI, the one time I drove 101 miles to just below VLBW in our LEAF the efficiency meter showed 5.9 mi/kWH. We'll look for you over on the 100-mile thread! Good luck!

 

[essaunders]

Good idea using the 93% chart. I just don't believe the efficiency meter on my dash, so that is suspect to me.

How many charge bars do you have left? What is shown on the GOM? I find it's usually pretty close when it is that low. I would say if you have two or more bars left and 20-or-so showing on the GOM, you may be fine to get to 100 if you drive slowly.

FYI, the one time I drove 101 miles to just below VLBW in our LEAF the efficiency meter showed 5.9 mi/kWH. We'll look for you over on the 100-mile thread! Good luck!

I charged last night. I think I'm going to have to spring for a leafDD or an android device and (now) Leaf Spy before I try again.

Now, if someone could just figure out a CHADEMO suitcase that could carry 2 kwh or something....

 

[ampitupco]

The LEAF Energy app uses Google map distance and elevation data, and it pulls in ambient temperature, all automatically. Of course, we didn't have battery temperature then, so that would be a logical addition. Yes, it would be awesome to import Gid values.

To make things clear, the Leaf Energy app (link in my sig) will allow the input of battery temperature, which is used in the available capacity calculation. The air temperature entry is used in the calculation of density altitude.

Also, you can input GIDs into the Leaf Energy app... an undocumented feature. In the required stuff section, TAP on the "Fuel Bars" label and it will switch between SOC%, GIDs, and Fuel Bars.

 

[essaunders]

The LEAF Energy app uses Google map distance and elevation data, and it pulls in ambient temperature, all automatically. Of course, we didn't have battery temperature then, so that would be a logical addition. Yes, it would be awesome to import Gid values.

To make things clear, the Leaf Energy app (link in my sig) will allow the input of battery temperature, which is used in the available capacity calculation. The air temperature entry is used in the calculation of density altitude.

Also, you can input GIDs into the Leaf Energy app... an undocumented feature. In the required stuff section, TAP on the "Fuel Bars" label and it will switch between SOC%, GIDs, and Fuel Bars.

Yes - great app - I use it to estimate consumption all the time.

any chance you could fit in a couple improvements?

in 'Show me the chart', could we get the option to look at 'degraded' charts? which one could be selected in settings

also, could you add a round trip function? set a start and destination and have the calculation continue for the way home.

(i'll submit these ideas via the feedback on the app too)

 

[madbrain]

The fuel bars are NOT directly linked to the store battery energy (Gid), but the battery warnings are.

If this is the case, what good do the fuel bars do anybody ?

I am somewhat confused by the multiple range charts - based on a new car, 1 year old car with 12 bars, and cars with only 11, 10, 9 or 8 battery bars.

For one thing, for the charts for cars with 8 to 11 bars, there are still rows for all 12 bars.
Let's take for example the chart for a car with 8 bars :
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Such a car could obviously never have 9, 10, 11 or 12 bars displayed. So why are those rows still present on that chart ? If my car had a maximum of 8 bars when fully charged, I would never want to look at those rows for 9, 10, 11, or 12 , right ? So, shouldn't those rows be removed ?
I would want to look only at the row for 8 bars and below.
If I look at the row for the 8th bar on that chart, it shows that the GID range is 117 to 125, and the SOC % is 41.7% to 44.6%.

But if I take the "new car" chart (at the top of this thread), the 8th bar has a GID range of 186 to 199, and the SOC% is 66.2% to 70.8%.

Are you really saying that 8 bars on a new car represents 186 to 199 GIDs, whereas 8 bars on a car that has a max of 8 bars has only 117 to 125 GIDs ?

Since a new car has a maximum of 261 GIDs, that would mean a car maxing out at 8 bars would have at most 125/261 = 47% of the battery capacity of a new car.

Please tell me I am reading this wrong, or there is an error somewhere.

 

[surfingslovak]

If this is the case, what good do the fuel bars do anybody ?

I don't think that Nissan intended the fuel bars to be a measure of range, only a measure of fullness. We, the drivers, might have elevated them to something they are not. This is the reason why I recommended the LEAF battery app to you. Given your usage pattern, range challenges and now apparently degradation, I think you would be well advised to elevate the instrumentation standard you rely on.

 

[JPWhite]

If this is the case, what good do the fuel bars do anybody ?

I don't think that Nissan intended the fuel bars to be a measure of range, only a measure of fullness. We, the drivers, might have elevated them to something they are not. This is the reason why I recommended the LEAF battery app to you. Given your usage pattern, range challenges and now apparently degradation, I think you would be well advised to elevate the instrumentation standard you rely on.

FYI the LEAF battery app is now called Leaf Spy and is available through the google play store.
I agree that it is an essential instrument for anyone needing to know exactly how much energy/range is left in the battery in real time.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I am somewhat confused by the multiple range charts - based on a new car, 1 year old car with 12 bars, and cars with only 11, 10, 9 or 8 battery bars.

For one thing, for the charts for cars with 8 to 11 bars, there are still rows for all 12 bars.
Let's take for example the chart for a car with 8 bars :
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ...

You are mixing up "bars". The fuel bars are next to the capacity bars, but have a very different meaning. The capacity bars are the narrow ones to the right of the fuel bars and show how much overall capacity the battery has remaining. The first one represents a loss of 15%, the rest represent additional losses of 6.25% each.

Regardless of how many capacity bars are displayed, the fuel bars will go from all twelve (full) to none (empty). The fuel bars are relative to the total remaining capacity of the battery. Therefore, the amount of charge represented by the fuel bars will decrease over time as the battery degrades. That's why it is helpful to have a better meter of some sort if one really needs a more accurate measure of the battery charge.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...I am somewhat confused by the multiple range charts - based on a new car, 1 year old car with 12 bars, and cars with only 11, 10, 9 or 8 battery bars.

For one thing, for the charts for cars with 8 to 11 bars, there are still rows for all 12 bars.
Let's take for example the chart for a car with 8 bars :
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ...

You are mixing up "bars". The fuel bars are next to the capacity bars, but have a very different meaning. The capacity bars are the narrow ones to the right of the fuel bars and show how much overall capacity the battery has remaining. The first one represents a loss of 15%, the rest represent additional losses of 6.25% each.

Hopefully this graphic will help. You might be confusing the fuel bars (13) and the capacity bars (14).

If there were all twelve fuel bars, and only 11 of 12 of the capacity bars, then it is fully charged with 78.75% to 85% capacity of when new.

You won't likely lose that capacity bar until your "Gid" % is about 81%. Please get one of the many tools to help you... they are cheap.

 

[JPWhite]

...I am somewhat confused by the multiple range charts - based on a new car, 1 year old car with 12 bars, and cars with only 11, 10, 9 or 8 battery bars.

For one thing, for the charts for cars with 8 to 11 bars, there are still rows for all 12 bars.
Let's take for example the chart for a car with 8 bars :
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ...

You are mixing up "bars". The fuel bars are next to the capacity bars, but have a very different meaning. The capacity bars are the narrow ones to the right of the fuel bars and show how much overall capacity the battery has remaining. The first one represents a loss of 15%, the rest represent additional losses of 6.25% each.

Regardless of how many capacity bars are displayed, the fuel bars will go from all twelve (full) to none (empty). The fuel bars are relative to the total remaining capacity of the battery. Therefore, the amount of charge represented by the fuel bars will decrease over time as the battery degrades. That's why it is helpful to have a better meter of some sort if one really needs a more accurate measure of the battery charge.

All true.

The thing that tripped me up on the Leaf instruments is that once a capacity bar is lost, you still have all 12 fuel bars. This is counter intuitive to what I was expecting. As a result, as the battery degrades, the fuel bars represent increasingly smaller amounts of energy. I don't like it that way, but that's the way it is. I used to do a quick mental calc of 5-7 miles per fuel bar to determine how much range I had left. Fine while I had a fairly new battery, not so much now. The 3rd party instruments available today make it much easier to accurately estimate your available range.

 

[DaveEV]

The thing that tripped me up on the Leaf instruments is that once a capacity bar is lost, you still have all 12 fuel bars. This is counter intuitive to what I was expecting. As a result, as the battery degrades, the fuel bars represent increasingly smaller amounts of energy.

Yeah, but it would only make sense to show fewer energy bars if the energy and capacity bars represented the same amount of capacity.

Would be better if the car simply had an option for the DTE indicator to represent DTE based on a fixed miles / energy ratio, such as the "ideal range remaining" that Tesla uses on their cars. Note that there is no "energy gauge" or "capacity gauge" on their dashboards. Only DTE indicator which can be switched between ideal or historical efficiency data.

 

[madbrain]

Survingslovak,

Given your usage pattern, range challenges and now apparently degradation, I think you would be well advised to elevate the instrumentation standard you rely on.

Agree. I just ordered an OBD2 device from a local ebay seller, I should have it later this week - best case tuesday, more likely wednesday.

 

[madbrain]

[]You are mixing up "bars". The fuel bars are next to the capacity bars, but have a very different meaning. The capacity bars are the narrow ones to the right of the fuel bars and show how much overall capacity the battery has remaining. The first one represents a loss of 15%, the rest represent additional losses of 6.25% each.

Thanks, that explains it ! And I just ordered an OBD2 device to use as meter.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

So I blew my first chance at 100 miles on a charge today. I ran the 1/2 marathon in St. Charles (I live in Skokie). It was 45.5 miles each way, and with a couple stops I made in the St. Charles area the total round trip was just over 100 miles (about 102).

The way out was rough. I was traveling at 5 am, so had use my lights all the way out. Additionally, overnight temps. dropped into the mid 40's knocking a good chunk of efficiency out of the battery. It was interesting to see the difference between the two legs.

To do the 45 miles out it took 49% SOC (I have 1600 miles on my leaf). No fan, no radio, just lights on which appear to use about 2-300 watts per the dash display. The drive was 1/2 tollways at 52-55 miles per hour, and half highway at 40-45 miles per hour (a few miles at 30 mph/hr at the very end).

Worried about drifting home on fumes (metaphorically of course), I charged 17% at the Kane County court house. (by the way, St. Charles Nissan locks their lot on Sunday, so charger is not available despite what I was told when calling earlier in the week).

I ended up back home with exactly 17% left, meaning I could have made the trip home with relative ease (as the trip to/from the charger was over 6 miles (4 miles to/from the locked Nissan lot)) even if I hadn't charged. It took about 41-42% SOC for the 45-46 mile return. Almost 20% more efficient (41 vs 49 % SOC). The ambient temperature had risen to the mid 60's by the time I headed back.

So while I won't make the 100 mile club on this run, even with some significant moderate freeway speeds 100 is very doable.

I don't know if its on any forum post out there, but we need to collectively push Nissan to have their dealership network ensure their chargers are available 24x7 if at all possible. It can't be business hours only. A 6 day a week charging network doesn't cut it.

Have a good Sunday Leaf Fan's everywhere.

 

[surfingslovak]

I don't know if its on any forum post out there, but we need to collectively push Nissan to have their dealership network ensure their chargers are available 24x7 if at all possible. It can't be business hours only. A 6 day a week charging network doesn't cut it.

Well done. Don't mean to sound too discouraging, but dealers are independent businesses and can set any policy they seem fit. I think the right approach would be to lobby to management of dealerships that don't see the value of offering this service. The second prong could be reporting dealers that are not LEAF friendly to Nissan corporate, so that they can nudge or incent them to change their ways.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I would be happy to stuff $3 into a box for the .50 cents of electricity I would use in the 30 minute session with a level 2. My comment about the dealerships is rooted in that they are advertising that their dealers will be part of the recharging network (with some 300 new Chademos going in). This is great, but the part of the deal with the dealer needs to be availability. Please charge if needed to give it justification, but need the off hours.

 

[TickTock]

Tony,
I was wondering how you came up with the +1% per 4C above 20C and -1% per 2C below formula. Is it measured empirically? Computed? Or from some aircraft pilot lookup table?

This thread from dpgcolorado go we wondering. Your formula and his computations are fairly close - but still some difference.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony,
I was wondering how you came up with the +1% per 4C above 20C and -1% per 2C below formula. Is it measured empirically? Computed? Or from some aircraft pilot lookup table?

This thread from dpgcolorado go we wondering. Your formula and his computations are fairly close - but still some difference.

Like the chart itself, all the corrections are empirical data, with a healthy dose of extrapolation. I wanted it to be simple, too. Finally, it needed to correct the failings of the formula that Nissan uses to temperature correct Gids, which tend to go UP when actually cold battery capacity goes DOWN.

It is the same way aircraft performance charts are done. All the density altitude corrections are, of course, aircraft performance data.

I will say that with all the information that we have learned, and all the tools now available, it's probably time to revisit all the data for super nerds, like me, that like that stuff.