Should I buy a Leaf - Please help with my fears

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Flatirons said:
Thank you for everyone who took time to respond. The suggestions provided are really helpful.

Here are some more details about situation.

I will be driving uphill 20 miles and 10 miles on a flat terrain when I drive from my home to the ski area.
I live at 5560 ft. and the ski hill is at 9200 ft.
I am only expecting to use Leaf 4-6 times when I cannot borrow my wife's SUV.

As for the temperatures, our day time temps to be 35 to 50 for the most part. But, the mornings
can get to 10. It is usually sunny even with low temps.

I hope this adds some more context.

Please offer suggestions to help me decide.
I assume that you are going up Boulder Canyon to Eldora. While you would be able to make the trip in cold weather on dry pavement with a new battery, trying to do it on snow or with an older battery pack that has lost capacity could be difficult. As others have said, the key is whether or not you make it to the ski area, going home should be easy.

If you look at Tony William's range chart you can get an idea of what range to expect. Note his estimate of about one fuel bar per 1000' gain. My guess is that you will be going down a bit then heading from about 5300' to 9200' or about 3900' vertical gain. Note also the estimate of about 1% loss in range per 4ºF in temperature below 70º. So a trip at 30º would have about 10% less range at a given speed. On the plus side, your entire trip would be at high altitude and that is a significant increase in range over sea level; it makes a big difference in my experience (I live at 7670 feet). You would get about 8% or more range increase over sea level numbers at a given temperature. Another plus factor is that typical speeds up Boulder Canyon are fairly slow. But your ten miles of flat (Foothills Highway? SH 93?) might be at higher speeds, which is a range killer, especially in cold air. (If your route involves the Peak-to-Peak Highway instead of Boulder Canyon then that would change the calculations somewhat.)

Yes, you could probably do the ski trip when the car is new and if the weather wasn't too sloppy. But pushing through snow on the road kills range quickly due to increased rolling resistance and decreased traction efficiency. Whether you want to give it a try depends on how much of a challenge you want. Some people freak if they get anywhere near the low battery warning. A few have even sold their LEAFs because they can't handle the "range anxiety". Others of us learn quickly what the car will do and don't worry about it.

As others have said above, if you gave it a try and determined that you weren't going to make it on any given day, you should be able to turn around and safely make it home because you likely would gain enough from regen downhill to drive that final ten miles on the flat. Again, if the roads weren't too sloppy. But if you are trying to make a job at Eldora, that wouldn't practical. Play around with the range chart to see what you think. Be sure to read the footnotes.

As others have said, a Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid would be the "safe" solution to making the Eldora commute in winter weather. And you would get 40 miles or so of electric range for routine driving. The downside is the complexity of a hybrid versus the simplicity of an EV like the LEAF.

For the record: I lived in Boulder (Gunbarrel) for more than fourteen years, but I can only guess at your route without more details.
 
GRA said:
TonyWilliams said:
GRA said:
And who knows, maybe Nissan will give people a little more capacity too, ala Volt. I'm not expecting it, but it would be nice if Nissan gave people a pleasant surprise for a change.
Mmmmm.... Using the same chemistry battery, that's already max'd out (93% available vice Volt with 60%) and 4.1 volts per cell (not much increase in energy stored above that voltage), and no room to add cells equals....

NO WAY IN HELL.

Edit: Sure, marketing probably has that 250km battery, but engineering didn't do anything to get it. P.T. Barnum had a saying, I think.....
I was thinking more a minor chemistry tweak that give a slight extra miles/capacity like what Chevy and LG Chem have done, rather than some super duper improvement.
Now, back to the regularly scheduled topic.
And now there's this rumor:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078770_2013-nissan-leaf-electric-car-to-use-new-cheaper-battery-cells-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
dgpcolorado said:
Flatirons said:
Thank you for everyone who took time to respond. The suggestions provided are really helpful.

Here are some more details about situation.

I will be driving uphill 20 miles and 10 miles on a flat terrain when I drive from my home to the ski area.
I live at 5560 ft. and the ski hill is at 9200 ft.
I am only expecting to use Leaf 4-6 times when I cannot borrow my wife's SUV.

As for the temperatures, our day time temps to be 35 to 50 for the most part. But, the mornings
can get to 10. It is usually sunny even with low temps.

I hope this adds some more context.

Please offer suggestions to help me decide.
I assume that you are going up Boulder Canyon to Eldora. While you would be able to make the trip in cold weather on dry pavement with a new battery, trying to do it on snow or with an older battery pack that has lost capacity could be difficult. As others have said, the key is whether or not you make it to the ski area, going home should be easy.

If you look at Tony William's range chart you can get an idea of what range to expect. Note his estimate of about one fuel bar per 1000' gain. <snip>
The people who made a run from Seattle? up to the mountains (reported in a thread here recently, which I'll need to find) reported about 1.5kWh/1,000 gain, so that's another way of looking at things.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Or get the Toyota Rav4 due out any day now. You will have to buy it in California and have it shipped. It has the battery (40kWh) from the Tesla Model S, thermal battery management, plenty of ground clearance and plenty of room for ski stuff.

About $50,800 plus taxes, fees and shipping to your door. Like almost all the LEAF competition, no quick charge, but it does have a 10kW charger onboard (about 30 miles per hour of charging). The batteries on these cars, like the Tesla, are likely to be rock solid.

Or just order a 40kWh Tesla Model S at $49,900 after the tax break. It should have no problems doing the trip in any weather or temperature, and it is a huge car with lots of space for ski gear. For $1500 extra one gets the panoramic roof with integrated attachment points for roof racks too.

Delivery would probably be around next summer.
 
GRA said:
dgpcolorado said:
If you look at Tony William's range chart you can get an idea of what range to expect. Note his estimate of about one fuel bar per 1000' gain. <snip>
The people who made a run from Seattle? up to the mountains (reported in a thread here recently, which I'll need to find) reported about 1.5kWh/1,000 gain, so that's another way of looking at things.

The range chart specifies either; 1.5kWh per 1000 feet or one fuel bar (which would only work for a like new battery, not a degraded one).

If you have an Apple device (iPad, iPhone) or Android device, there are now apps for the range chart.
 
jkirkebo said:
TonyWilliams said:
Or get the Toyota Rav4 due out any day now. You will have to buy it in California and have it shipped. It has the battery (40kWh) from the Tesla Model S, thermal battery management, plenty of ground clearance and plenty of room for ski stuff.

About $50,800 plus taxes, fees and shipping to your door. Like almost all the LEAF competition, no quick charge, but it does have a 10kW charger onboard (about 30 miles per hour of charging). The batteries on these cars, like the Tesla, are likely to be rock solid.

Or just order a 40kWh Tesla Model S at $49,900 after the tax break. It should have no problems doing the trip in any weather or temperature, and it is a huge car with lots of space for ski gear. For $1500 extra one gets the panoramic roof with integrated attachment points for roof racks too.

Delivery would probably be around next summer.

I went to the Santa Monica, California TESLA store yesterday, but haven't yet seen a Model S with the glass roof. The one they had there was the hard top. Yes, the car is HUGE, but I don't now that it is necessarily better than the Toyota Rav4 for a ski trip. I'll bet the Rav4 has more ground clearance for pushing snow. Neither has quick charge capability. I suspect that the Model S will be WAY MORE FUN for normal driving.

The Rav4 also will get the $7500 US government tax break, and the $2500 California state credit (I don't know what Colorado has, sorry). So, a $50,800 Rav4 is still about $7000 cheaper.
 
TonyWilliams said:
GRA said:
dgpcolorado said:
If you look at Tony William's range chart you can get an idea of what range to expect. Note his estimate of about one fuel bar per 1000' gain. <snip>
The people who made a run from Seattle? up to the mountains (reported in a thread here recently, which I'll need to find) reported about 1.5kWh/1,000 gain, so that's another way of looking at things.

The range chart specifies either; 1.5kWh per 1000 feet or one fuel bar (which would only work for a like new battery, not a degraded one).

If you have an Apple device (iPad, iPhone) or Android device, there are now apps for the range chart.
Ah, I've got an older hard copy version of the range chart that doesn't mention the 1.5kWh. I see it on the new one. To quote Emily Litella, "Never mind".
 
I live in Loveland and have been driving the LEAF since June. I LOVE it! I've made the drive to Denver (about 50 miles) at about 68mph on I-25 and been just fine. Charging is easy in parking garages and most Walgreens, as I'm sure you know.

I've also made the drive from Loveland to Estes Park and back with AC on, going up the Thompson canyon. It was just fine all on one 100% charge, even with a 20 minute construction delay. The range drops on the way up, and stays almost the same on the way down. Haven't tested the heater, but will soon!

Good luck with your decision. You will be happy to drive a LEAF!
 
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