Solar Panels

[LEAFfan]

Oh, you may have missed a post on another thread...I don't really care about the payback on the system, I just want to drive a totally emissions free vehicle and help our environment. Our electric bill is way below the average already and I don't really believe the charging is going to add much with the pvs. I know it will be less than .02/mi. to charge.

In that case, the calculator I posted earlier would work very well for you to estimate. The grid would funciton as a giant "backup battery" if you charge at night.

Thanks greenleaf! It came out to a yearly ave. of 6.6 peak hours and 4851 yearly output. Now, I have to decide which panels to buy...Canadian Solar 220's with Enphase micros, SunPower Serenghetti 228 with one inverter, Sharp, or Sanyo (thin film over crystalline) with micros. One of the installers told me that micro-inverters may not do well here in AZ because their range is only up to 160 F and it gets over 180 on the roofs. Anyone heard of this problem with micro-inverters?

 

[greenleaf]

Oh, you may have missed a post on another thread...I don't really care about the payback on the system, I just want to drive a totally emissions free vehicle and help our environment. Our electric bill is way below the average already and I don't really believe the charging is going to add much with the pvs. I know it will be less than .02/mi. to charge.

In that case, the calculator I posted earlier would work very well for you to estimate. The grid would funciton as a giant "backup battery" if you charge at night.

Thanks greenleaf! It came out to a yearly ave. of 6.6 peak hours and 4851 yearly output. Now, I have to decide which panels to buy...Canadian Solar 220's with Enphase micros, SunPower Serenghetti 228 with one inverter, Sharp, or Sanyo (thin film over crystalline) with micros. One of the installers told me that micro-inverters may not do well here in AZ because their range is only up to 160 F and it gets over 180 on the roofs. Anyone heard of this problem with micro-inverters?

Micro inverters cost more, so unless you are affected by shading, they are not really needed. Yeah, they are on the roof and it gets hot up there.

The SMA Sunny Boy is one of the more reliable inverters from what I have read.

My 3.22 kW (DC) system to be installed is

14 x Canadian Solar CS6P-230PX
1 x SMA SB4000US inverter

 

[LEAFfan]

Oh, you may have missed a post on another thread...I don't really care about the payback on the system, I just want to drive a totally emissions free vehicle and help our environment. Our electric bill is way below the average already and I don't really believe the charging is going to add much with the pvs. I know it will be less than .02/mi. to charge.

In that case, the calculator I posted earlier would work very well for you to estimate. The grid would funciton as a giant "backup battery" if you charge at night.[/quote]

Thanks greenleaf! It came out to a yearly ave. of 6.6 peak hours and 4851 yearly output. Now, I have to decide which panels to buy...Canadian Solar 220's with Enphase micros, SunPower Serenghetti 228 with one inverter, Sharp, or Sanyo (thin film over crystalline) with micros. One of the installers told me that micro-inverters may not do well here in AZ because their range is only up to 160 F and it gets over 180 on the roofs. Anyone heard of this problem with micro-inverters?[/quote]
Micro inverters cost more, so unless you are affected by shading, they are not really needed. Yeah, they are on the roof and it gets hot up there.

The SMA Sunny Boy is one of the more reliable inverters from what I have read.

My 3.22 kW (DC) system to be installed is

14 x Canadian Solar CS6P-230PX
1 x SMA SB4000US inverter[/quote]

The guy that quoted me on almost the same panels (220's/3KW) and micros (he said they are 10% more efficient and didn't cost any more than a single inverter). His gross price is $15,900...after SRP rebate and tax credits, $5615 net cost. What's the gross cost for your system?

 

[greenleaf]

The guy that quoted me on almost the same panels (220's/3KW) and micros (he said they are 10% more efficient and didn't cost any more than a single inverter). His gross price is $15,900...after SRP rebate and tax credits, $5615 net cost. What's the gross cost for your system?

My gross cost is $5.24/W x 3220W = $16872.80.
Your cost seems to be $5.30/W x 3000W = $15900.00.

I don't know if micros are 10% more efficient. According to the SMA spec, its conversion efficiency is already 96%.

Did you ask about the cost with a single inverter?

 

[LEAFfan]

The guy that quoted me on almost the same panels (220's/3KW) and micros (he said they are 10% more efficient and didn't cost any more than a single inverter). His gross price is $15,900...after SRP rebate and tax credits, $5615 net cost. What's the gross cost for your system?

My gross cost is $5.24/W x 3220W = $16872.80.
Your cost seems to be $5.30/W x 3000W = $15900.00.

I don't know if micros are 10% more efficient. According to the SMA spec, its conversion efficiency is already 96%.

Did you ask about the cost with a single inverter?

Yeah, same price. But I have to find out if these micros can withstand our AZ sun.

 

[DaveEV]

Yeah, same price. But I have to find out if these micros can withstand our AZ sun.

I've chatted with one person who's used them for a while now in AZ without issue. You can also view Enphase's public list to view data from systems in Arizona.

http://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/all_public_systems

On their list, 7 of 20 top all time producing systems are in Arizona.

You'll want as much space between the panels/roof surface as possible to minimize heat buildup - regardless of whether or not you're in AZ. Cooler panels = more power.

 

[LEAFer]

You'll want as much space between the panels/roof surface as possible to minimize heat buildup - regardless of whether or not you're in AZ. Cooler panels = more power.

"Cooler panels = more power" makes good sense; and I assume the extra space simply provides better air circulation. But a question about the heat build up in the roof. Assume a dark red tile roof. The tiles UNDER the solar panels ... aren't they completely shaded ? If so, only exposed tiles get hot; but those won't radiate heat to the panels. And they also conduct very little heat to the shaded tiles. So, is it simply a question of the panels getting hot ? Or is it the heat buildup on the micro-inverters that causes reduction in efficiency ? If the panels are getting hot (which is typically a "good thing", meaning more power produced due to bright sunlight) ... how much does "cooling" from air ciculation on the underside really help ? 10%, 30% ?

Anyone think a "misting" system (water cooling) would be more effective/feasible ?

 

[evnow]

So, is it simply a question of the panels getting hot ?

Yes.

 

[DaveEV]

Difference won't be 30%, but ~10% difference will be seen when comparing a system mounted flush (basically no air gap) and 6" of air gap.

Most of the gains come with 3-4" of air gap - anything more than 6" you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns.

 

[Azrich]

[

Richard, do you have any idea how big a system we will need to charge the LEAF without using the grid? I want to tell people that this car is truly zero emissions. I'm planning on using thin-cell panels and since we don't have any obstructions, I don't think we need individual enphase inverters. I was hoping around 3KW which should only be around $6-7K after rebates and credits.

leaffan, it depends on how many miles you drive daily. My average daily mileage is about 50 miles, so I'm thinking I will need about 12 kW a day, times 30 days is about 360 kWh per month. Our system has the capability of generating 870 kWh a month, so even with the LEAF charging we will generate more than half the power we use, on average, per month. Our big electricity use months are June thru Sept because the air conditioning runs a lot, especially on those 105 degree day. I guess you know that because I think you are in Phoenix.

I'm ordering a license plate frame that says: "Charged with Solar Power".

Today I was telling my physical therapist about the panels and the LEAF. He is young and asked, "What's making you do all these 'green' things?" My answer is "Beaches." He looked puzzled. I told him we love to go on vacation to places with beaches. We love to snorkel. We love Hawaii, Belize, and the Virgin Islands. We want to do whatever we can to stop the melting of the polar ice so beaches will be here for future generations. We have no children so we will spend our money and investments on things to make the earth a better place." He understood. Beaches.

 

[mwalsh]

Looks like I'm back on track with my installation - site survey scheduled for Friday afternoon, and I just today got the CSI confirmation email on my rebate paperwork going in.

Apparently I "fell through the cracks". Glad I didn't leave it any longer to inquire where we were at....I really don't know how long it would have taken them to realize I'd been overlooked, if I hadn't prodded.

 

[LEAFfan]

[

Richard, do you have any idea how big a system we will need to charge the LEAF without using the grid? I want to tell people that this car is truly zero emissions. I'm planning on using thin-cell panels and since we don't have any obstructions, I don't think we need individual enphase inverters. I was hoping around 3KW which should only be around $6-7K after rebates and credits.

leaffan, it depends on how many miles you drive daily. My average daily mileage is about 50 miles, so I'm thinking I will need about 12 kW a day, times 30 days is about 360 kWh per month. Our system has the capability of generating 870 kWh a month, so even with the LEAF charging we will generate more than half the power we use, on average, per month. Our big electricity use months are June thru Sept because the air conditioning runs a lot, especially on those 105 degree day. I guess you know that because I think you are in Phoenix.

I'm ordering a license plate frame that says: "Charged with Solar Power".

Today I was telling my physical therapist about the panels and the LEAF. He is young and asked, "What's making you do all these 'green' things?" My answer is "Beaches." He looked puzzled. I told him we love to go on vacation to places with beaches. We love to snorkel. We love Hawaii, Belize, and the Virgin Islands. We want to do whatever we can to stop the melting of the polar ice so beaches will be here for future generations. We have no children so we will spend our money and investments on things to make the earth a better place." He understood. Beaches.

According to that solar table, a 3KW system can generate about 404kwh per month here in Phoenix, so it sounds like I'll go with the the 3KW. Now, this guy called me back today and wanted to know if I would be willing to buy the new Honeywell AC SmartGrids at their cost. He said they've never tried them on any homes yet, and wanted to monitor them. Has anyone heard of these and how good they are? Thanks!

 

[DaveEV]

According to that solar table, a 3KW system can generate about 404kwh per month here in Phoenix, so it sounds like I'll go with the the 3KW. Now, this guy called me back today and wanted to know if I would be willing to buy the new Honeywell AC SmartGrids at their cost. He said they've never tried them on any homes yet, and wanted to monitor them. Has anyone heard of these and how good they are? Thanks!

Looks like they are brand new on the market - hadn't heard of them before now.

Their website doesn't have that much information on them, either. Warranty looks good - I'd say that if your installer will give you a great price it may be worth looking in to.

 

[LEAFfan]

According to that solar table, a 3KW system can generate about 404kwh per month here in Phoenix, so it sounds like I'll go with the the 3KW. Now, this guy called me back today and wanted to know if I would be willing to buy the new Honeywell AC SmartGrids at their cost. He said they've never tried them on any homes yet, and wanted to monitor them. Has anyone heard of these and how good they are? Thanks!

Looks like they are brand new on the market - hadn't heard of them before now.

Their website doesn't have that much information on them, either. Warranty looks good - I'd say that if your installer will give you a great price it may be worth looking in to.

I found one website that said that installation should be 50% less than the other ones. I find that hard to believe, but when he emails me the quote, I'm going to ask him about that.

 

[Jimmydreams]

According to that solar table, a 3KW system can generate about 404kwh per month here in Phoenix, so it sounds like I'll go with the the 3KW. Now, this guy called me back today and wanted to know if I would be willing to buy the new Honeywell AC SmartGrids at their cost. He said they've never tried them on any homes yet, and wanted to monitor them. Has anyone heard of these and how good they are? Thanks!

Tell your installer that you're be HAPPY to help them beta-test the market. Offer to let them use your house as a show-place for 6 months after install. But tell them that to get all that, you get the system at a greatly reduced cost.

I was a beta-tester for SunPower's home montoring system, and as such, I got it for free. I think they sell it now for something like $1,000! :shock:

 

[LEAFfan]

According to that solar table, a 3KW system can generate about 404kwh per month here in Phoenix, so it sounds like I'll go with the the 3KW. Now, this guy called me back today and wanted to know if I would be willing to buy the new Honeywell AC SmartGrids at their cost. He said they've never tried them on any homes yet, and wanted to monitor them. Has anyone heard of these and how good they are? Thanks!

Tell your installer that you're be HAPPY to help them beta-test the market. Offer to let them use your house as a show-place for 6 months after install. But tell them that to get all that, you get the system at a greatly reduced cost.

I was a beta-tester for SunPower's home montoring system, and as such, I got it for free. I think they sell it now for something like $1,000! :shock:

He knocked $2000 off the panels and the cost per watt on the 3.12kw system is $4.97 with the installation at $2500. Is $2500 a fair price? I was told that installing these new panels reduces the labor by 50%. So that means that someone on here that had theirs done, would have had to pay $5000 labor for a 3.1kw system. Anyone? Thanks!

 

[DaveEV]

He knocked $2000 off the panels and the cost per watt on the 3.12kw system is $4.97 with the installation at $2500. Is $2500 a fair price? I was told that installing these new panels reduces the labor by 50%. So that means that someone on here that had theirs done, would have had to pay $5000 labor for a 3.1kw system. Anyone? Thanks!

So, that is $5.77/watt today which is a pretty good price overall.

Anything under $6/watt (installed) is a low price, $6-$7 is fairly average, $8+ is expensive, IMO.

Since the Honeywell system uses micro-inverters, I assume it allows monitoring of individual panels/inverters?

 

[hodad66]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/17/plug.in.solar.energy/index.html

Plug-n-Play Solar Panels.....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4pr7tGiBB8[/youtube]

 

[garygid]

Looks like a possible solution for replacing my deteriorated patio "roof", providing more shade, with no permit or professional installation needed. Properly overlapped, they might also protect from the rain. Cool!

 

[LEAFfan]

He knocked $2000 off the panels and the cost per watt on the 3.12kw system is $4.97 with the installation at $2500. Is $2500 a fair price? I was told that installing these new panels reduces the labor by 50%. So that means that someone on here that had theirs done, would have had to pay $5000 labor for a 3.1kw system. Anyone? Thanks!

So, that is $5.77/watt today which is a pretty good price overall.

Anything under $6/watt (installed) is a low price, $6-$7 is fairly average, $8+ is expensive, IMO.

Since the Honeywell system uses micro-inverters, I assume it allows monitoring of individual panels/inverters?

So how much did they charge you for labor? The monitoring is $540. Where did you get $5.77/w? It is just under $5/w. My net cost will be $5156 ($1.65/watt net), 'one year same as cash'.