Tell me if a Leaf could work for my situation...

[MaxPower]

I would say keep the Saturn for another year or two until the DC J1772 combo starts getting designed into EVs, then jump onboard. If you don't want to wait, a 2013 LEAF would work in your situation. I drive about 55-miles daily and charge on 120V at work. An 80% charge is enough to get me to work, and trickle charging throughout the day while at work is enough to get me back home. Below 15F, I have to charge to 100% or else I will be forced to sacrifice heat for range (something I refuse to do). I don't drive faster than 60MPH most of the time. If you got a 2013, the new more efficient heater should squeeze out a few more miles of range than my 2012.

The 2013 cabin heater is only more efficient above 30F, below that temperature it is no more efficient than the 2011 and 2012 heater.

Have you investigated the Toyota Rav4 EV? It is not quite as efficient as the Leaf, but it has a lot better range at highway speed.

 

[cwerdna]

Have you investigated the Toyota Rav4 EV? It is not quite as efficient as the Leaf, but it has a lot better range at highway speed.

The OP's in Canada. I'm not sure it's even being sold there. Warranty work might be even more of a challenge and the OP would be ineligible for the $7500 US Federal tax credit and $2500 CVRP. Also, who knows if they could take advantage of the $10K TFS cash w/financing as they're outside the US?

And, if importing a US vehicle, there could be issues w/import duties, compliance w/Canadian rules, and the car would be in our archaic units. (I'd considered selling my former 350Z to a Canadian dealer when I was in WA state, as cars in Canada seem real expensive.)

 

[surfingslovak]

The 2013 cabin heater is only more efficient above 30F, below that temperature it is no more efficient than the 2011 and 2012 heater.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The heat pump is expected to be about 3 times more efficient than a resistive heater down to about 32F. It's efficiency will gradually decline between the freezing point and 0F, and below that temperature, it's expected to have no advantage over a traditional heater. Nissan had a nice info graphic on this in their 2013 press kit, perhaps it's time to go find it.

 

[Phatcat73]

The 2013 cabin heater is only more efficient above 30F, below that temperature it is no more efficient than the 2011 and 2012 heater.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The heat pump is expected to be about 3 times more efficient than a resistive heater down to about 32F. It's efficiency will gradually decline between the freezing point and 0F, and below that temperature, it's expected to have no advantage over a traditional heater. Nissan had a nice info graphic on this in their 2013 press kit, perhaps it's time to go find it.

Agree, at least based on the GOM. Test drove a 2012 Leaf in 30 deg F. turned on the heat and range dropped by 11 miles. The same test in a 2013 dropped the GOM by 4.

 

[BEVeedom]

I am usually the type of person to buy a car new and then keep it for 10-15 years.

Yes me too, my 2012 Leaf SL is the first car I have ever leased in 40 years of driving but I think it is the way to go right now. $1999 down and $199 a month is cheap rent on a $38,000 car and just looking at the changes from 2012 to 2013 tells me that my leased car will be somewhat obsolete when I give it back in late 2014. As the technology evolves and prices come down I think the time for ownership may still be a couple of years off (for my needs and economic reality). There will also be more selection in the marketplace as well.

You have a garage with access to an easy hook-up for level II - that's a real plus.

You have an ICE car you can drive when going out-of-range or on super cold days - that's a plus

If you can talk your workplace into installing a level II "charger", I think you'll be fine, especially with the new 6.6KW Level II in the '13 models.

The only caveat would be your extreme cold climate that I know will negatively affect range. Good luck!

 

[hingisfan]

I would say keep the Saturn for another year or two until the DC J1772 combo starts getting designed into EVs, then jump onboard. If you don't want to wait, a 2013 LEAF would work in your situation. I drive about 55-miles daily and charge on 120V at work. An 80% charge is enough to get me to work, and trickle charging throughout the day while at work is enough to get me back home. Below 15F, I have to charge to 100% or else I will be forced to sacrifice heat for range (something I refuse to do). I don't drive faster than 60MPH most of the time. If you got a 2013, the new more efficient heater should squeeze out a few more miles of range than my 2012.

The 2013 cabin heater is only more efficient above 30F, below that temperature it is no more efficient than the 2011 and 2012 heater.

Have you investigated the Toyota Rav4 EV? It is not quite as efficient as the Leaf, but it has a lot better range at highway speed.

Rav4 is like 50 grand and not even available in Canada!

 

[dgpcolorado]

I can understand about not wanting to have to decide if it's too cold to make the trip in the LEAF at 5:30 am. Does you wife have to drive as far to get to work? If her drive is significantly shorter you might have to just let her drive the LEAF during the months when it might get too cold to make your trip advisable. Of course there is that battery heating thing. I have a 2011 LEAF so I don't know how much power that would suck out off the battery if parked at work in really cold weather. You wouldn't want you wife coming out to find that she didn't have the power to make a return trip.

Maybe someone on the forum who has a 2012 LEAF with the battery heater can give us a feeling for how much power it would use?

The battery heater draws only 300 Watts and would only run intermittently. It comes on when the battery reaches -20ºC and turns off at -10ºC. It will work down to about 30% SOC if the car is unplugged IIRC. If the car is being driven or charged the battery will likely be warmer than ambient temperature.

All of which leads me to suggest that the drain from the battery heater in very cold weather will be small and not much of a factor in cold weather range. Especially compared to the usual suspects: cold dense air, increased rolling resistance, reduced traction efficiency on snow or ice, reduced charge capacity for a cold battery, and the drain from cabin heater use, if any.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

your Summer temps is a concern. for that, I would charge to no more than 80% at work. guessing parking is not covered, etc and charging to deeply in Summer is not recommended.

other than that, you should be golden. guessing the worst range you might see is 45-50 miles with minimal heat but just a 4-5 hour boost at work should be more than enough to get you home although i recommend getting as much of a charge as you can.

the only real concern (since it happened to me) is the changing attitudes of employers. now, I had the ability to charge at work which was removed but mine could have been special circumstances. I had a ZENN (canadian product!) which was very limited in range so they allowed me to plug in at work. When I got my LEAF, that changed but guessing it could be because I

1) did not push it

2) let it be known I could drive to work all week on a single charge so it was not really needed. (i worked 4 days a week and it was a 11 mile RT)

3) my ZENN could not make the round trip comfortably in Winter

but either way, banking on your employer's long term commitment to this is something I would make sure I discussed at length with the powers that be

 

[TonyWilliams]

I would say keep the Saturn for another year or two until the DC J1772 combo starts getting designed into EVs, then jump onboard.

I don't even want to imagine how a Frankenplug will somehow save the day (that the current CHAdeMO charger doesn't).

For the record, there is absolutely NOTHING to be gained from waiting for the Betamax Frankenplug.

 

[TonyWilliams]

LEAF Cold Effects:

Several issues related to heat affect the LEAF.

1- Cold on the battery reduces CAPACITY, at about 1% loss per 2C degrees of battery temperature below 20C. Therefore, a freezing level battery at 0C will have 10% less capacity and a really cold one at -20C will have about 20% less capacity. A new condition LEAF battery at 20C contains 21kWh of usable energy.

2- Using the heater will increase energy usage (and therefore reduce economy and range) by easily up to 30%. There are too many variables to predict in advance how much energy you might use with the heater, but we do know that with zero usage, there will be zero impact to range. The best economy in heating is using only minimal defrost (perhaps cracking a window) and using the seat and steering wheel heaters.

3- Cold air is more dense than warm air, and cold tires have more resistance than warm ones. Plan on 1% reduction in range per 300 meters decrease in "density altitude".

4- Cold weather generally means "contanimated" roadways with snow, standing water, etc. This increases rolling resistance and reduces range. Again, all but impossible to predict the impact in advance, but it can be substantial (20-30% loss of range).

5- Charging times increase substantially with a cold battery.


There is one advantage to cold batteries, and that is that they will last a long time if you don't freeze them at -30C.

 

[cwerdna]

Rav4 is like 50 grand and not even available in Canada!

Yep on the MSRP. In So Cal, there's the $10K Toyota incentive - the $7.5K Federal tax credit - $2.5K CVRP (CA rebate) - some amount of dealer discount which helps make it a lot cheaper, as they're barely selling.

I guess it's a bit ironic as it's supposedly assembled in Ontario, Canada.

 

[hingisfan]

I would be seriously considering a Volt as well, but they are listed at 42k here.....I can't justify paying ~8k more than a leaf.

Why is Canadian pricing for the 2013 not even out yet, when people in USA have already taken delivery?

Ridiculous....I bet we get screwed again and CDN MSRP is 5k higher than US!

 

[stsimon0073]

This is my first post. Thanks to everyone for all of the great information on this site.

I am planning to lease a 2013 Leaf SV with the Quick Charge option. I have a 50 mile per day round trip commute. I also have a 2006 Honda Insight that I plan to keep for days when I need greater range. I also plan on using the Insight in January and February except on unseasonably warm days. I will also use the Honda on days when my wife and I can't carpool together for whatever reason.

Using it 10 months a year I figure the 12 mile standard lease deal should work.

I am thinking of installing a 40 AMP charger in case I get a car in the future that van take advantage of it.

Any flaws in my analysis? How much more per month should I expect to pay per month on a 36 month lease over the current SV lease deal for the Quick Charge Port option?

Thanks!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

This is my first post. Thanks to everyone for all of the great information on this site.

I am planning to lease a 2013 Leaf SV with the Quick Charge option. I have a 50 mile per day round trip commute. I also have a 2006 Honda Insight that I plan to keep for days when I need greater range. I also plan on using the Insight in January and February except on unseasonably warm days. I will also use the Honda on days when my wife and I can't carpool together for whatever reason.

Using it 10 months a year I figure the 12 mile standard lease deal should work.

I am thinking of installing a 40 AMP charger in case I get a car in the future that van take advantage of it.

Any flaws in my analysis? How much more per month should I expect to pay per month on a 36 month lease over the current SV lease deal for the Quick Charge Port option?

Thanks!

50 mile RT commute means you would just about have to park it all weekend to keep under the 12,000 mile limit even at 10 months a year.

i personally think you are greatly underestimating the funness of the LEAF. you will find a MILLION excuses to not take your Insight... i guarantee it.

 

[Reddy]

I am planning to lease a 2013 Leaf SV with the Quick Charge option. I have a 50 mile per day round trip commute. I also have a 2006 Honda Insight that I plan to keep for days when I need greater range. I also plan on using the Insight in January and February except on unseasonably warm days....

...i personally think you are greatly underestimating the funness of the LEAF. you will find a MILLION excuses to not take your Insight... i guarantee it.

50 mi RT is perfect, as is your plan to use the Honda on very cold days (although you should still be able to make it unless it's a combination of wind/rain or heavy snow). Dave's right. You'll want to drive the Leaf more. Better plan on buying out the lease or paying extra at the end for the miles.

 

[planet4ever]

Using it 10 months a year I figure the 12 mile standard lease deal should work. I am thinking of installing a 40 AMP charger in case I get a car in the future that van take advantage of it.

It sounds like you have thought this through well, but like Dave and Reddy, I suspect you will want more than 12k miles.

On the "40 AMP charger", what you really mean is a 30 Amp EVSE on a 40 Amp circuit. (The charger is built into the car.) Some people disagree with me, but I consider that overkill. A 16A EVSE will be just fine at home for nearly any future EV you get unless:

• you drive more than 100 miles a day, or
• you believe that freeways should always be driven at 75 mph or faster, or
• you spend much of your day racing other cars, or
• you are home for less than eight hours every night.

It's true that your 2013 SV will have the 6kW charger, and would charge roughly twice as fast at home on a 30A EVSE as on a 16A EVSE. So the question is, do you care whether it takes 2 hours or 4 hours to charge after your 50 mile commute?

Ray

 

[stsimon0073]

Good points by all. I may consider uping the yearly lease miles to 15K instead of 12, assuming I can get the right deal. I could start with the 16amp EVSE and only upgrade to 30 if I find that I really need it.

Thanks to all.

 

[WetEV]

I am thinking of installing a 40 AMP charger in case I get a car in the future that van take advantage of it.

I consider that {30 A EVSE} overkill. A 16A EVSE will be just fine at home for nearly any future EV you get unless:

So the question is, do you care whether it takes 2 hours or 4 hours to charge after your 50 mile commute?

Ray

If you come home at 5 and plan on leaving at 7 for play/concert/other fun, you might care a lot...

 

[RegGuheert]

I am planning to lease a 2013 Leaf SV with the Quick Charge option.

Good choice! I think that is what we would get if we were to buy a 2013.

I have a 50 mile per day round trip commute. I also have a 2006 Honda Insight that I plan to keep for days when I need greater range. I also plan on using the Insight in January and February except on unseasonably warm days. I will also use the Honda on days when my wife and I can't carpool together for whatever reason.

After a year with our 2011 LEAF, we consider a 50-mile RT (with two mountain crossings) to be a "no-brainer" trip in the LEAF, even without the heat pump that you will have. We've done that all winter with no difficulty. Simply charge to 100% and preheat the cabin. We even do a 75-mile trip over the same mountain on about a once-a-month basis, but that requires slightly more careful planning in winter.

As others have said, I think your biggest issue will be keeping the miles off the LEAF. We have a Honda Civic Hybrid as our backup car and the LEAF is still highly preferred in the wintertime for short trips due to the preheating capability. OTOH, my wife prefers the Honda in the winter if the trip length goes beyond about 60 miles so she doesn't have to limit her heater usage on the return trip.

 

[stsimon0073]

Glad to hear that the leaf can easily do a 50 mile round trip. I will likely still use the Insight in the Winter, partly as a way to hold down the miles on the leased Leaf. The only negative is that it will reduce the lifetime gas mileage record of the Insight...